Am I understanding this correctly? The rifles locking lug recesses in the receiver have been "set back" for whatever reason. Welding is not an option or even sensible. I'm not real familiar with L-E's but is it possible to set the barrel back one thread and finish ream the chamber? That would seem preferable to dicking around with the action. Or maybe this is impossible?
MK 1 No4 Why is this so complicated?
- Thread starter mike12
- Start date
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
I keep wondering why the Enfield seems to be the ONLY military rifle where EVERYONE worries about headspace???
Now I do have gages, BUT I have been collecting and shooting Enfields MANY years before I got those gages and there has never been a problem with any of them.
Now I do have gages, BUT I have been collecting and shooting Enfields MANY years before I got those gages and there has never been a problem with any of them.
If the primer didn't pop out a bit is the headspace okay?
We tried my neighbour's "found in back shed" Lee Enfield last year and it had some split necks and he said it was head space. I said it was cheap commercial brass in a big chamber.
The primers remained well seated.
We tried my neighbour's "found in back shed" Lee Enfield last year and it had some split necks and he said it was head space. I said it was cheap commercial brass in a big chamber.
The primers remained well seated.
macadoodle
CGN Regular
- Location
- Edmonchuck
What would be the correct way to fix a lee with head space issues, not fixed by a bigger bolt head? I don't see why a proper weld and grind of a bolt face wouldn't be fine, but if not why? And what is the proper fix?
ANY welding to either a bolt face of locking lug recess will result in local embrittlement of the steel, and a heat affected zone radiating out from the epicentre of weld melt where the steel will be overly annealed and the strength significantly compromised. You could end up with catastrophic failure at the hardened surfaces and almost certain slower plastic faulire in the HEZ.
It's basic materials science that we're talking about. If you weld on a receiver, you had better use a welding rod (I'd recommend TIG) of similar composition to the receiver (or bolt if you're welding that) and you would then need to stress relieve the receiver, machine back the weld to the final dimension, and then re-heat treat it. I SERIOUSLY doubt your gunsmith knows what the steel alloy is, nor what the heat treatment cycle needs to be to make a weld repair viable.
But what do I know?
It's basic materials science that we're talking about. If you weld on a receiver, you had better use a welding rod (I'd recommend TIG) of similar composition to the receiver (or bolt if you're welding that) and you would then need to stress relieve the receiver, machine back the weld to the final dimension, and then re-heat treat it. I SERIOUSLY doubt your gunsmith knows what the steel alloy is, nor what the heat treatment cycle needs to be to make a weld repair viable.
But what do I know?
So, many questions, where to begin???
Manufacturer - BSA
I believe the original bolthead is a 0 and the replacement was a 1.
And the first question I asked was why can't we replace with a 2 or 3, the 2nd Gunsmith said it's so far out of range that it would make a difference.
I'm picking the rifle up tomorrow so hopefully this guy can explain a little more, although I think macadoodle is describing what he means. I should also clarify that the 2nd Gunsmith was not suggesting he does this work, all he was saying was that when you have a rifle with this much headspace and it can't be corrected by up'ing the bolthead. The only other option is to rework the reciever, which he didn't recommend because of the cost.
There is not going to be any court dates or lawsuits, as I said early in the thread the seller is allowing me to send the rifle back.
No question I have doubts about both Gunsmiths, but consider this #1 was has been in business for many years, sells many Enfields and stocks most of their parts. #2 was specifically recommend by members here, one of which state that they used him for several of their Enfields. This is why I'm so confused. I appriecate everyone's suggestions regarding buying my own guages but I have to ask; how would I or even a self proclaimed collector of Enfields be able to measure the headspace better than 2 Gunsmith who work on guns for a living. No doubt that there are some tricks of the trade but it took me about 15 mins on the web to find about about checking headspace on a No 4 Mk 1. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit???
Does anyone know anyone an expert in Southern Ontario?
Manufacturer - BSA
I believe the original bolthead is a 0 and the replacement was a 1.
And the first question I asked was why can't we replace with a 2 or 3, the 2nd Gunsmith said it's so far out of range that it would make a difference.
I'm picking the rifle up tomorrow so hopefully this guy can explain a little more, although I think macadoodle is describing what he means. I should also clarify that the 2nd Gunsmith was not suggesting he does this work, all he was saying was that when you have a rifle with this much headspace and it can't be corrected by up'ing the bolthead. The only other option is to rework the reciever, which he didn't recommend because of the cost.
There is not going to be any court dates or lawsuits, as I said early in the thread the seller is allowing me to send the rifle back.
No question I have doubts about both Gunsmiths, but consider this #1 was has been in business for many years, sells many Enfields and stocks most of their parts. #2 was specifically recommend by members here, one of which state that they used him for several of their Enfields. This is why I'm so confused. I appriecate everyone's suggestions regarding buying my own guages but I have to ask; how would I or even a self proclaimed collector of Enfields be able to measure the headspace better than 2 Gunsmith who work on guns for a living. No doubt that there are some tricks of the trade but it took me about 15 mins on the web to find about about checking headspace on a No 4 Mk 1. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit???
Does anyone know anyone an expert in Southern Ontario?
Thing is - a headspace gage just tells you fail or not. Unless the smith(s) had access to larger boltheads, it would be difficult to ascertain how far out the headspace is. The question begs - did the second smith try larger boltheads?
OK, I just back from the Smith, he showed me how when the bolt is locked you can slide it back and worth, so much that I was suprised I didn't notice it. As for changing the bolthead (I currently have a 1), he said that is normally what he does but in this case with that much play, changing boltheads will not be enough.
I had to laugh cause he said he has no doubt there are guys shooting MK1 No4's with this kind of headspace, he just said as a Gunsmith he can't say it's safe nor would he use it himself.
So, next week it will go back to the seller and hopefully they will agree and I'll get a replacement.
I had to laugh cause he said he has no doubt there are guys shooting MK1 No4's with this kind of headspace, he just said as a Gunsmith he can't say it's safe nor would he use it himself.
So, next week it will go back to the seller and hopefully they will agree and I'll get a replacement.
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
My next question is Did he do this with a fired case or a dummy round? Or was it just with an empty chamber? In that case, he didn't know what the hell he was doing. An Enfield is NOT a mouser! It headspaces on the rim, not the shoulder.
Good luck mike12;let us know how you make out with the seller.
Stupid "gunsmith". Did he actually have a shop, or was it a basement?
All Enfields will exhibit NO wiggle if cocked as the cocking piece draws the bolt tight to the locking recesses.
If not cocked, you are observing NOTHING unless a round is chambered.
Headspace is checked with a .074" field/reject gauge, NOT by wiggling the bolt.
All Enfields will exhibit NO wiggle if cocked as the cocking piece draws the bolt tight to the locking recesses.
If not cocked, you are observing NOTHING unless a round is chambered.
Headspace is checked with a .074" field/reject gauge, NOT by wiggling the bolt.
In an unloaded Lee Enfield, the firing pin spring will hold the locking lugs back against the locking shoulders, it the rifle is cocked. If the rifle is not cocked, the bolt can be pushed foreward toward the barrel, againstt he pressure of the extractor spring. This movement is normal, and is not an indication of excess headspace.
Has any gunsmith actually used headspace gauges to test the rifle?
Has any gunsmith actually used headspace gauges to test the rifle?
He used all 3 guages; go, no go and field and he said he was able to close the bolt on all three. He tried this on the original bolt that came with the gun and the replacement from the 1st gunsmith, same result. Is this not black and white, if it the bolt closes on the field its got too much headspace?
After he checked the headspace he show me the bolt moving, it was with an empty chamber and cocked, he was able to push the bolt forward towards the chamber. While driving home I did wonder, would you not have that movement because there is no chambered round?
After he checked the headspace he show me the bolt moving, it was with an empty chamber and cocked, he was able to push the bolt forward towards the chamber. While driving home I did wonder, would you not have that movement because there is no chambered round?
I don't believe he tried larger bolt heads, his comment was I have a number 1 going up to a number 2 or 3 isn't going to be enough???
So, checking the headspace is as simple as using the 3 guages, then if required swapping head bolts until you get one that gives you a pass on the field and no go guage?
So, checking the headspace is as simple as using the 3 guages, then if required swapping head bolts until you get one that gives you a pass on the field and no go guage?
