MOA? What's the criteria?

Brianma65 said:
Yes, but what I'm trying to determine is , how many groups/ rnds,does colt, kac, etc fire out of there rifles , to be able to claim , that it's a 1 moa rifle?
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Military requirements typically do not use MOA as a parameter.
For example the accuracy criteria the Canadian forces used for the PGWDTI Timberwolf was over 90% hit probability on a chest sized target at 1,200M using their specified ammo.
As you can see this is over 1MOA with a rifle that can do much better in perfect conditions.

PGWDTI claims 0.75MOA accuracy for this rifle and has stated that all the rifles delivered to the CF passed
with over a 95% hit ratio.
 
image.jpgI'm just trying to figure out how everyone claims there rifle is 1,2,3,4 moa. How many shot for each group,and how many groups ,before they claim it is a 1,2,3 or 4 moa rifle. I just bought a new rifle, that I was expecting 2 or 3 moa because of the comments on CGN . After some shooting ,I found it to better than I expected. I didn't buy it for the accuracy, but after doing a few groups and measuring them,I now find that I'm interested in doing it again. I even bought a better scope ,for the next time. For some reason the accuracy is becoming more of an interest to me. So thanks for the tips. Here's a pic of some groups,I have the photos of the targets,but I'll just post the written info. So from these groups,with the best 3, 5 rnd group being,2 under 1 moa and 1 just above 1 moa. Can I state my rifle is now a 1.054 moa shooter? And if when I mount the better scope and put some effort into the shooting, and can keep the groups under 1 inch,can I then factually state it a sub moa rifle?
 

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A factory sub MOA rifle means it will shoot, from a cold barrel, 3 consecutive shots into .75" or less @ 100yds. Then they sell it with a guarantee to shoot .99" or less at 100 yds with premium ammo. That is pretty much the industry sub MOA guarantee.

Here is a published note WRT Weatherby sent to a customer.........not to me by the way.

We appreciate your comments and would like to help you with the accuracy of your rifle. First let me clarify how we accuracy test and qualify the Sub-MOA rifles. Every rifle we shoot starts with a cold barrel and then we shoot 3 consecutive shots at 100 yards. To qualify for the Sub-MOA program the rifle must shoot a 3 shot group that is equal to or less than .75". We guarantee all Sub-MOA rifle to shoot a 3 shot group of .99" or less from a cold barrel at 100 yards when using premium ammunition.

Since you have a 300 Weatherby you have allot of options for premium ammunition. We qualify most all of the Sub-MOA rifle with our 180gr Hornady spire point load. We have also found great accuracy with the Barnes and Nosler options.

Every rifle is different and so you might have to try a couple of different loads to find the one that your rifle likes. From our testing our suggestion is to start with the Hornady load and if that doesn't meet the standards then try the Barnes. If you continue to have issues please feel free to contact our service department and they would be happy to assist you.

I hope this answers your questions and concerns. Thank you again for your support and we hope you have great success with your new rifle

Good Hunting,

Aaron Smith
Marketing Manager
Weatherby, Inc
 
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There is no defined amount of shots for testing MOA on your gun.


Shoot as many or as few as you want, minimum being 3 to qualify as a group. If your rifle can not hold MOA 90-95% of the time, it is not an MOA gun.

If your rifle puts 9 out of every 10 shots into 3" at 300 yards, and bumps one out every now and then, I feel you are safe to call it an MOA rifle, but if out of 10 or so shots you get 3 or 4 leaving that group, well, you have a rifle that is getting close, but it is not an MOA rifle.

A lot of people claim MOA, few ever seem to do it in real life when they are actually called out. Out of all my guns, I only have 2 that I would actually say can do it, the rest still punch rounds outside that MOA claim.

Talk is cheap, results are the true test.
 
Juster said:
There isn't one. MOA is an angle, groups are about statistical probability. You could say that you shoot a 5-shot sub-moa group 90% of the time, for example.
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The whole MOA thing is pretty overblown (on this site especially).
I can say that I shoot 2 rounds under an inch at 100 meters so does that mean my rifle is now an "MOA rifle"? 4 rounds?
Sound like you would have to lock the rifle in a bench vice under vacuum chamber settings and fire the thing at 100 meters without influencing anything around it to honestly say it about any rifle. So many factors can change the group as well; shooter, wind, ammunition, air pressure etc etc
Like you just said too, it's like saying "well 90% of the time my rifle shoots MOA every time" lolol
It's a specific concept with no real defined parameters it seems.
Personally the term to me is vacuous and means absolutely nothing. It's a great gimmick to sell guns though! :D
 
Travis Bickle said:
The whole MOA thing is pretty overblown (on this site especially).
I can say that I shoot 2 rounds under an inch at 100 meters so does that mean my rifle is now an "MOA rifle"? 4 rounds?
Sound like you would have to lock the rifle in a bench vice under vacuum chamber settings and fire the thing at 100 meters without influencing anything around it to honestly say it about any rifle. So many factors can change the group as well; shooter, wind, ammunition, air pressure etc etc
Like you just said too, it's like saying "well 90% of the time my rifle shoots MOA every time" lolol
It's a specific concept with no real defined parameters it seems.
Personally the term to me is vacuous and means absolutely nothing. It's a great gimmick to sell guns though! :D
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Agreed.

If the term MOA is to be applied to the rifle, and not just corrections, I feel that you should be able to hold that standard in real world scenarios, Ie: shooter off a bipod or sandbag, firing in any kind of reasonable condition.

If you can not hold a true MOA the vast bulk of the time, discounting the rare flyer, then your system (not just your gun) is not MOA.
 
Kevin M. said:
There is no defined amount of shots for testing MOA on your gun.


Shoot as many or as few as you want, minimum being 3 to qualify as a group. If your rifle can not hold MOA 90-95% of the time, it is not an MOA gun.

If your rifle puts 9 out of every 10 shots into 3" at 300 yards, and bumps one out every now and then, I feel you are safe to call it an MOA rifle, but if out of 10 or so shots you get 3 or 4 leaving that group, well, you have a rifle that is getting close, but it is not an MOA rifle.

A lot of people claim MOA, few ever seem to do it in real life when they are actually called out. Out of all my guns, I only have 2 that I would actually say can do it, the rest still punch rounds outside that MOA claim.

Talk is cheap, results are the true test.
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This is very true..I am now only doing 1 shot groups and my results are far better than expected!!!! I'm now sub moa with every group, and wind/ammo/distance is no longer a factor.
 
I like to know what my gun is capableof, so if I'm getting 1 moa from a bench , I have a better chance at hitting something at a couple hundred yrds ,shooting freehand. I'm sure that a 1 moa gun would me a lot more shooting free hand. But you see a lot of BS on here,and I know I should say ,fuc it ,it's only I the internet, but sometimes it just irks me...lol. Nemesis huh....it fits in a briefcase man..awesome.I can only imagine explaining to the wildlife officer that it's your hunting rifle..:)
 
Travis Bickle said:
The whole MOA thing is pretty overblown (on this site especially).
I can say that I shoot 2 rounds under an inch at 100 meters so does that mean my rifle is now an "MOA rifle"? 4 rounds?
Sound like you would have to lock the rifle in a bench vice under vacuum chamber settings and fire the thing at 100 meters without influencing anything around it to honestly say it about any rifle. So many factors can change the group as well; shooter, wind, ammunition, air pressure etc etc
Like you just said too, it's like saying "well 90% of the time my rifle shoots MOA every time" lolol
It's a specific concept with no real defined parameters it seems.
Personally the term to me is vacuous and means absolutely nothing. It's a great gimmick to sell guns though! :D
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You got it.
I use a new, radical and very conservative method.........I just tell people the truth.
I tell them what, when, and where I shot the groups, people can call my rifle what ever they want.

Call me on it, and I can probably repeat my groups, humble? maybe........believe +/- MOA claims even from manufacturers?.....NO!, NO! and NO!.
 
mikethebike said:
Well lots of people differ but for me 5 shot groups, a minimum of 4 groups shot on the same day on the same rifle by the same shooter using the same optics on the same ammo and letting the barrel cool down between each group is a good measure of the accuracy of the rifle on that ammo, but thats pretty strict.
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This is 100% ^ Except I do 3 or 5. 3 with magnified optics and 5 with things like HWS or red dots or iron sights. I'll do 5 shot groups with magnified optics (sometimes), but that's only to make sure it's exactly where I want to be, when I have satisfied myself with the grouping at longer distanced targets.
 
I'm going to do some more testing with the vmax 53g ammo. 5 , 5 rnd groups, if I get 1 moa, I'll then try some groups freehand. I think that's what is important. If your gun is 1 moa from a bench then you have a better chance at making a 300 yard shot , freehand, than if your gun is 3 moa.
 
Any manufacturer that advertises all THEIR rifles are MOA rifles will state what ammo was used or applies. Otherwise it's marketing BS only.
Nearly all of the major manufacturers do not test for anything close to 1 MOA accuracy. They might not test for function either. QC is a daft thing wherein not every single manufactured thing gets tested anyway. Just a specified number out of a day's production. Might be one in ten gets a function test and one in 20 actually gets fired. And that applies to every manufactured thing. Car parts, like oil pans and rads, are not pressure tested either.
 
Brianma65 said:
I'm going to do some more testing with the vmax 53g ammo. 5 , 5 rnd groups, if I get 1 moa, I'll then try some groups freehand. I think that's what is important. If your gun is 1 moa from a bench then you have a better chance at making a 300 yard shot , freehand, than if your gun is 3 moa.
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100%. The ability to accurately place rounds on a target is limited by the addition (or multiplication sometimes) of the rifles grouping ability and all the induced error (both operator and environmental). Having a sub moa rifle is nothing if you can't hold the target from positions other than prone.
 
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