Model 12 Winchester ammo fussy?

JoKa said:
Its not chambered it 2-3/4 So your shells are unfolding in the forcing cone causing a tough extraction

Some are 2-3/4 so some people might argue.... but depending on the year of manufacture some have a short chamber. Mine is 2-5/8". I think wiki says that they are 2-9/16.

**Added notes: old paper shotgun shells didnt unroll as much as modern plastic shells. Meaning chambers at that time where not as long? TRUE or FALSE?
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Very slim chance it is what you are saying unless a real early one

From one of the model 12 cult who knows these inside out

Early 12 GA. Winchester model 1912's shotguns DID have short chambers in them, as well as the 16 GA. and the 20 GA. model 1912's. The 12 GA. Winchester model 1912's had a 2 5/8 inch chamber, not the standard 2 3/4 inch chamber. The 20 GA. Winchester model 1912's had the 2 1/2 inch chambers while the 16 GA. model 1912 had the 2 9/16 inch chamber. Beginning in and after 1927 the Winchester model 12 (not stamped Winchester Model 1912 by this time) was built with the standard chambers of 2 3/4 inch chambers, with the 3 inch chambers later being built in this model. Between 1926 thru 1928 almost all shotguns in American went to the 2 3/4 inch chamber as a standard. Most early Winchester model 1912 that are marked with Nickle Steel should have their chambers checked to make sure they aren't short chambered. Once Winchester model 1912's went from Nickle Steel to Winchester Proof Steel and were stamped as Model 12 (not Model 1912 which by the way stopped around 1918 to early 1919) the chambers were all standard 2 3/4 inch size on all guages. There were no 12 GA. Winchester model 1912's ever chambered with a 2 1/2 inch chamber to begin with. The 2 1/2 inch chambers were used on the 20 GA. Winchester Model 1912's. Hope this was of some help.
 
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I do own a Mod 12, It sticks HARD if you try to fire 2-3/4 from it. It is 2-5/8 chamber. (Discovered later)
That is my only input.
 
JoKa said:
I do own a Mod 12, It sticks HARD if you try to fire 2-3/4 from it. It is 2-5/8 chamber. (Discovered later)
That is my only input.
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Is it in the date range or have the barrel stamp they noted interesting to see
If 2 5/8 sure will stick. Wonder what year the OP has
Cheers
 
JoKa said:
I will look at it tonight and PM you so it does not stray off the OP first post :D
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Cool. Just trying to see if the information is accurate. Would be good to know
There was a guy here shooting 3" out of a old SXS that was 2 1/2
Would blow the entire top off the hull and he would not stop. Oh well
Take care
 
The 12 ga model1912 /12 -12 ga was never made with a chamber shorter than 2 3/4" this includes the first one off the assembly line in 1913/1914 and all other production grade guns .
 
A few things to check make sure your left hand extractor is not broken, if u can remove the right hand one clean the spring and plunger, next take the bbl assembly off tha action look into the action u will see one or two screws that hold the chamber ring in place make sure they are tight u will need a small flat head screw driver. Next put the bbl assembly back on the action open the action and run your finger around inside the chamber where the chamber ring and bbl meet there should be no ridge it should be as one .The bad news is your chamber may be slightly over size if that is the case there is no fix for that Winchester made a couple million model12's ther is bound to be 1 or 2 with issues . I have a few nice custom shop model 12 trap guns back in the 80's when the first cheap trap loads appeared I had trouble with the odd one sticking in the chamber which could be quite unnerving at a trap shoot.
 
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struff55 said:
The 12 ga model1912 /12 -12 ga was never made with a chamber shorter than 2 3/4" this includes the first one off the assembly line in 1913/1914 and all other production grade guns .
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Was waiting for this and would normally agree but seem to be hearing different lately

just for interest another post from the same debate

Still a gray area to me at this stage


I quote

PROVEN! The chamber is pre-1927 Model 12's are short, and set up for 2 9/16 shells!

I just visited my gunsmith to pick up my 1923 Model 12. I had some missing and broken parts. Needed a new butt pad. I asked him to measure the chamber telling him that I'd read that pre-1927 Model 12's were chambered for 2 9/16 shells.

He said that he'd never heard that but took the run apart and dropped the gague into the chamber. "Well I'll be darned". He said. "No question about it this gun is set up for the shorter shell. In all my years of gunsmithing I've only seen half a dozen 12's so chambered."

I watched him as he measured the chamber. Yep, short. He's going to lengthen the chamber a bit and lengthen the forcing cone so it'll accept the longer plastic shell without possibly hanging up. Cost? $60.

So there you have it! At least for my 1923 Model 12 Winchester shotgun with a serial number of about 303,### the chamber is indeed too short to entirely safely fire 2 3/4 shells. He did test fire the gun with regular shells, but after measuring it he said it is better that the chamber be made to fit the longer more modern shell.
 
"Took the gun apart and measured the chamber" he apparently measured the portion of the chamber in the barrel and missed measuring the chamber ring in the receiver. These two measurements together make the chamber length. If that is the case don't let him lengthen an already 2 3/4" chamber.



Darryl
 
That is correct Darryl u have to add the chamber ring measurement to the length of the chamber of the bbl portion . No diss. To your smith but he would not be working on my model 12's if he does not Know how to measure a chamber on a model 12? Once again all 12 ga model 12's from day one had 2 3/4 " chambers . I don't want ruffle any ones feathers but I made a living as a smith for decades and did winchesters warranty work for many yrs and was well connected with Winchester back
In the day . I only says so people don't think I'm talking out of my butt or regurgitateing Internet dribble. All that being said that does not mean that one could not have be short chzmbered by mistake . I had Winchester rifles come in for warranty work with only have a chamber also 22's that had no chamber
 
struff55 said:
.... once again all 12 ga model 12's from day one had 2 3/4 " chambers ....
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Identical to the statements by George Madis in his book "The Winchester Model Twelve". Madis was a Winchester engraver in the Custom Shop in New Haven for a great many years, and also wrote the standard reference "The Winchester Book" in 1961.

Apparently early 20 gauge guns were chambered for 2-1/2" shells, but after 1925, 2-3/4" was adopted as standard.
Early 16 gauge guns were chambered for 2-9/16" shells, but standardized after 1927 at 2-3/4".
Model 12 Heavy Duck guns were available with 3" chambers commencing 1935.
Winchester also offered to to lengthen any twelve gauge chamber to 3" shells for an additional charge.

Besides worn, burred or broken extractors. or a weak or broken ejector, a weak or broken extractor spring could be the culprit.
Additionally, excessive headspace can allow the base of the shell to expand causing difficult extraction. A new barrel chamber ring can often help.

I've heard a great many complain about Fail to Feed/Extract/Eject problems with the steel based "promo loads" particularly from Winchester, and to a lesser
extent from Federal, Remington &a few of the European brands like Rio. I think at very least, I would chase the problem down beginning with factory "AA's" or "STS's" .
 
Yes and you go on some of the shotgun forums and they are still debating this and many agree with Madis and others donot and some have posted examples of some short chambers in 12ga not a lot but a few
Me I don't know and Like Struff55 have never seen a short chamber 12ga in canada but as Struff 55 says mistakes or what ever do happen and maybe that is what these guys have state side since their comments are pretty strong and usually backed up by a gunsmith.
Who really knows what was done in the 1920's and to me these model 12's could be like some remingtons I have here that also donot exist per books. One example

Ok what year did remington installed choke tubes in their shotguns easy remchoke in late 86/ early 1987 everyone knows that.
Well why then do I have a 1985 23" barrel english stock 1100 with factory special square thread brileys in it. Factory Installed and Briley after some digging still had the old informationl to make me the two I was missing since they were unique
After talking to Remington and Briley it seems they did a special 1985 run of 1100 12ga DU guns with this set up but with longer barrels and it seems a few dozen were done also as regular production plain receivers, even shorter barrels and no DU reference.
Try to find that in any remington literature but it was done

Oh Yes holy crap Snuff55 I figured you were old but man to be doing warranty work prior to 1927 you are one old dude. :D Just kidding. One thing I have learned when it comes to guns and old cars never say never since they did some strange things sometimes to keep production lines rolling and back in the day didnot have the quality checks we have today
Cheers
 
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3macs1 said:
... Well why then do I have a 1985 23" barrel english stock 1100 with factory special square thread brileys in it....
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As a veteran DU-er, I certainly remember those ... and a few other "oddities" as well. As a young fellow I worked in a shop that also did a pile of Winchester warranty work ... and installed Simmons ribs on a truck load of Model 12's and 42's (as well as other plain barrel guns). You're right when you say you should "never say never" ... and that applies to always as well ! Remington & Winchester were both very good at doing "special orders", particularly for fundraisers and special interest groups. Model 760 in 257 Roberts ? ... yup, Model 7600 with birdseye maple stock & forend ? ... yup - all kinds of special order stuff, almost annualy at Grices's in Pennsylvania.

I wonder if the short chambered Mod. 1912's were measured incorrectly ... or if in fact they were special ordered. The Fox Collector's Association unraveled a little mystery about the so-called
"Super Fox" Model HE's ( like Nash Buckingham's "Bo-Whoop" ) Seems the big Foxes were quite over-bored under Mr. Baker's supervision and had a ton of choke constriction (one was measured at .057" ! ) The 3" chambers of these guns, when measured with a typical chamber gauge showed less than 3" ??? Seems they were designed with a very tight chamber ... smaller than conventional specs - but still just large enough to chamber a factory shell. A few owners (& gunsmiths) confidently stated that they had Super Foxes with shorter than 3" chambers ... but careful measurement with a bore gauge revealed differently - they were 3" ! .... Just wonder if the deviant 12 ga. short-chambered Model 1912's were incorrectly measured - or if they actually had a shorter chamber length actually stamped on the barrel ??? Stateside, there's all kinds of nasty stuff going on with bogus and counterfeit Winchesters ... no doubt driven by Collectors looking for the unusual.
And yes, according to some experts like Pauline Muerrle & Larry Sidener, even Model 12's, 42's and 21's with fake barrel stampings and so-called factory engraving not done by Winchester engravers. All too many high-buck variations showing up with "no surviving records available from Cody" ... generally means "run away from this one ... fast ! "
 
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