Model 12

romiogt

romiogt

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In the spirit of "they don't build 'em like they used too" what would someone consider the modern day equivalent shotgun of the old Winchester Model 12? or dare we say that todays manufacturing processes and bottom lines preclude us of building firearms of this nature?

Opinions welcomed ...
 
I don't think there is any. The model 12 disappeared for a reason, the price of labour, intricate machining and hand fitting became to high for the 12 to be sold at a competitive price.
 
Mike Webb said:
I don't think there is any. The model 12 disappeared for a reason, the price of labour, intricate machining and hand fitting became to high for the 12 to be sold at a competitive price.
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Only due to the true fact that in the late 50's Remington started the trend of "dummying down" so to speak by producing quality reduced firearms through stamped and forged parts with greater tolerances and removing labour cost. Other manufacturers had to follow suit in order to compete bringing about generations of guns that were and still today are knowhere near what their counterparts of yesteryear were or are.
 
the spank said:
Only due to the true fact that in the late 50's Remington started the trend of "dummying down" so to speak by producing quality reduced firearms through stamped and forged parts with greater tolerances and removing labour cost. Other manufacturers had to follow suit in order to compete bringing about generations of guns that were and still today are knowhere near what their counterparts of yesteryear were or are.
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The 870 wasn't so much made cheaply as it was a clever design from the manufacturing standpoint. Ditto for Mike Walker's model 700 and its uncles the model 721,722 and 725. Just the design for the recoil lug saved a lot of machining and set up time. They were just as accurate as the pre 64 model 70 and cost 40% less to buy.
 
There are guns almost made the old way but they cost Way more than us regular guys can afford. Merkel, David mckay Brown, holland ana holland for example. They all use modern cnc machining but also had fit the rest of the gun.I want one but couldn't even buy one used.
 
I've got two M97's, three M12's and a Browning 20 ga M12. All nice guns and well made. Getting smoother with age. Might have been better with two slide bars instead on one, but if it ain't broke .....

I just acquired a Mossberg "M&M" (Mossberg/Magpul) 590A1 and it has twin action bars. The locking lug engages a recess in the barrel, so it's moot about it having an alloy receiver. This gun has been subjected to severe testing in training and combat by the US military and come out well. They are expected to last in service for a long time.

The M12 was fading in popularity while continuing to be expensive to produce. Shooters demanded cheaper and the softer recoil of a semi-auto. That killed it.

The M12 is enjoying a resurgence of popularity thanks to the "Wild Bunch" event of SASS, based on the movie by that name.
 
870 killed M12 in commercial sense. Looks at disassembly process and you will quickly understand why. I wouldn't mind to own model 12, but I started my shotgun adventure with 870 and that's what I like the best. Unfortunately while probably of better quality M12 succumbed to simpler and cheaper design that works as well as M12.
 
Nestor said:
870 killed M12 in commercial sense. Looks at disassembly process and you will quickly understand why. I wouldn't mind to own model 12, but I started my shotgun adventure with 870 and that's what I like the best. Unfortunately while probably of better quality M12 succumbed to simpler and cheaper design that works as well as M12.
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At 15 I began with a Mossberg 500 and within a year traded it in on an A-5. Now that was a shotgun but about 2 years later my father acquired an 870 and shortly after did not want it so I sold the A-5 and bought his 870. I had several for a few years until at about 22-24 when I got into Trapshooting heavily I switched over to a Model 12 and never have owned an 870 since. I just like the solid feel of the Model 12 and the heft and weight of it, not to mention the durability. Just my preference really.
 
Perhaps, but since both of these models will last a lifetime without much hassle to the owner...what's the point of "upgrading"?
Older shotguns have certainly a lot of charm, but from average user's point of view availability of parts and ability to customize is usually quite important.
 
Nestor said:
Perhaps, but since both of these models will last a lifetime without much hassle to the owner...what's the point of "upgrading"?
Older shotguns have certainly a lot of charm, but from average user's point of view availability of parts and ability to customize is usually quite important.
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Yes the 870 was definitely more adaptable back in the day with it's easy swap barrels. If you wanted different chokes back in the day you bought a barrel. With the model 12 that was a half gun with the take down feature it had. Not an inexpensive option.
 
The takedown feature of the Winchester '97 and M12 was not to swap choked barrels but for ease of transport. People were used to the 'leg o' mutton' type of shotgun case for dismantled SxS's and the idea was carried forward with the repeating pump guns. Slightly cheaper models of both were offered with a solid frame.

Remember, there was a time that you could sling your gun case over your shoulder, walk around town, access public transit, etc., without being taken down at gun point, stripped searched and arrested.

Those that wanted to change chokes on solid or takedown models had the option of a fugly 'Polychoke' or 'Cutts Compensator' abominations that totally ruined the looks of a classic design.
 
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Sharps '63 said:
The takedown feature of the Winchester '97 and M12 was not to swap choked barrels but for ease of transport. People were used to the 'leg o' mutton' type of shotgun case for dismantled SxS's and the idea was carried forward with the repeating pump guns. Slightly cheaper models of both were offered with a solid frame.

Remember, there was a time that you could sling your gun case over your shoulder, walk around town, access public transit, etc., without being taken down at gun point, stripped searched and arrested.

Those that wanted to change chokes on solid or takedown models had the option of a fugly 'Polychoke' or 'Cutts Compensator' abominations that totally ruined the looks of a classic design.
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I know all that I am just saying if you wanted the different choke options thats how it was. That is why Remington made many barrel length/chokes available to allow for using your same gun with different barrels. There were alot of model 12 combo sets made too but they were a much more expensive endeavour. And the takedown feature of the model 12 is awesome. I have stuck mine in a duffel bag with my clothes many times when I wanted to bus it without being questioned about my gun case.
 
The Winchester Super X Model 1 that came out in 1974 was the semi auto version of a M-12 as it it had similar feel and point ability. Alas it to fell to high manufacturing costs as it had extensive machined parts. I bought one in 74 and it's still going strong, won't say how many thousands of rounds it's digested as you wouldn't believe me, and it would make any Rem 1100 owner envious. So if your in to semi's a Win SX-1 would be a good choice.

Still have my Dad's M-12. Also had one of the Browning M-12 grade V 20 gauges. Very beautiful gun. The very finest single shot 20 ga I ever owned, as browning when the reproduced these guns just had try and reinvent the wheel and redesigned and changed a few parts. The gun wouldn't function as intended from day one. Sent it back to Browning it worked fine for a while then went back to it's old ways of not cycling the shells through by either jamming or ejecting them out the bottom onto the ground. Traded it off to Mr. Epps for a new Model 70. I am told by a reliable source the Browning reproductions in 12, 28 and .410 are fine but the 20 ga. have an inherent manufacturing flaw so stay clear of them.

With these fine older guns it all boils down to whether or not they will fit your needs in a shot gun as none came with choke tubes or 3" or 3.5" chambers. Most can have the barrels fitted with interchangeable choke tubes but nothing can be done to accommodate anything over 2 3/4".
 
Shhhh!!! Don't let them know about the SX-1's or the prices for them in the EE will start climbing! ;)

I am thinking your Browning Model 12 must have been an oddball? I had one of the new Winchester versions(1993mfg), no doubt made by the same company that put out the Browning versions? Mine was a 20 ga. 26" Imp Cyl and it functioned flawlessy. It was sweet as heck to shoot. I should never have horse traded it away. The only design change in the action between the originals and newer versions was an interruptor to do away with the old Model 12's ability to hold the trigger down while cycling the action and be able to keep "slam" firing. Caught me off guard first time I tried it on the 20. I thought WTH? Is my gun broken?! :confused: :redface:
 
If you are looking for a gun to use with lead shot, there's no reason not to look for a Model 12 or a Remington 31 in hunting condition.

If you are thinking steel shot, you will at least have to do some modifications to the barrel, as Spank has done. Why not? Model 12's aren't rare by any means, and common ones in good condition aren't expensive. The Remington model 31 seems to be less common. Equally well built and designed, just not as many to pick from.
 
I have a Mod 12 and an older Wingmaster, love the build quality of the Mod 12 but it doesn't fit me well and beats me up accordingly. Wingmaster fits and points for me much better, and I shoot it better. Both guns have been shot lots, both are reliable, the M12 is classier in my opinion, but I'll go to the gun that hits what I point at and for me thats my 870. MD
 
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