Modern Hunter jamming issue

Mister Donut said:
Maybe he's not proficient in English and writes what he doesn't mean, but I find it difficult to read it any other way. His opinion of a car he considers crap is a $35,000 Benz.......while I drive a $2,000 Jeep. Not sure he could look down on people any more than that.

I understand the concept of diversifying your business, though I'm not sure he does. Lamborghini did just that by introducing the Gallardo, a lower cost Lambo compared to the Murcielago, and yes the R8 through Audi. This concept seems to elude him.

The question still stands, is he using a DPMS BCG in his Lamborgini?
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I am unsure why this really matters? Perhaps you could enlighten me?
 
patsow87 said:
I get what you are saying,but do you agree with me that anything in those prices should be tested prior to delivery and run flawlessly out of the box ? I'm buying a package based on the premise that it'll be a top notch rifle and shoot as such, what furniture I put on it is not really relevant if the basic functioning or design have a flaw. So whether it's the 3500$ ((+ taxes and shipping ) that's already over 4200$ for those of us in beautiful socialist Quebec) or a 6500$ fully decked out version makes no difference if you got a lemon upper or lower, sucks more if you sank the extra 3k to build your dream rifle though. I'm looking for a pre-owned one currently, still NOT sure if I want to risk it if it dosent run as I would expect a high end rifle to: reliably and accurately.
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I hear you on wanting it to run flawlessly out of the box, but sometimes #### happens. What does bother me is that return shipping both ways for non-user/owner in cured problems or damages is not covered by the manufacturer. To me this is unacceptable, and damn well should be #####ed about. Luckily I only live about 3hrs from the shop so I can take mine in with out using Canada Post. Those of you on the east coast or up north should not have to worry about receiving a malfunctioning rifle for fears of the shipping charges that will be in cured to ship it 2 or more times again at no fault of your own.
 
patsow87 said:
I get what you are saying,but do you agree with me that anything in those prices should be tested prior to delivery and run flawlessly out of the box ? I'm buying a package based on the premise that it'll be a top notch rifle and shoot as such, what furniture I put on it is not really relevant if the basic functioning or design have a flaw. So whether it's the 3500$ ((+ taxes and shipping ) that's already over 4200$ for those of us in beautiful socialist Quebec) or a 6500$ fully decked out version makes no difference if you got a lemon upper or lower, sucks more if you sank the extra 3k to build your dream rifle though. I'm looking for a pre-owned one currently, still NOT sure if I want to risk it if it dosent run as I would expect a high end rifle to: reliably and accurately.
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Before every rifle leaves here we run 20 rounds through it to ensure it functions. That is 4 times a 5 round mag.
It becomes a fine line, at what point do we stop? Does anyone want to purchase a brand new rifle that has 200 or 500 or 1000 rounds put through it just so that we as the manufacturer know that it functions flawlessly?
I doubt any of the big manufacturers run more than a round or 2 through their guns. We feel that if a rifle will run 20 rounds without a hiccup the rifle "should" then be sufficiently tested to run reliably.
There are MANY variables in why a rifle will not cycle, we have identified lubrication as the number 1 problem people have as they wrongly assume that these tight tolerance built rifles will run like a sloppy tolerance battle rifle, which they are NOT!!
It takes a few hundred rounds down range through these before all of the parts are worn in to the point that they cycle like a battle rifle does out of the box, this is called a "break in period".
We have been extremely transparent in the fact that these are built to much tighter tolerances and that unlike a battle rifle that will eat any ammo, our rifle is more selective in its diet.

Tax is never assumed by anyone logical to be part of the price, nor is shipping. Quebec is a GST only province so apart from your choice of living there and having to have a gun shipped to you, the price is the same as buying it here. Buying a car or anything made in the east out west incurs significant shipping costs but I guess that is different? Exaggeration of price is done for effect, just like the yellow journalists employ when reporting a 2 car pile up as multicar. It has a more dramatic effect.
 
onetwentyish said:
I hear you on wanting it to run flawlessly out of the box, but sometimes #### happens. What does bother me is that return shipping both ways for non-user/owner in cured problems or damages is not covered by the manufacturer. To me this is unacceptable, and damn well should be #####ed about. Luckily I only live about 3hrs from the shop so I can take mine in with out using Canada Post. Those of you on the east coast or up north should not have to worry about receiving a malfunctioning rifle for fears of the shipping charges that will be in cured to ship it 2 or more times again at no fault of your own.
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There is a simple solution to this that many manufacturers use. They build in X amount of money into the price of the commodity to cover potential warranty issues. This can be very beneficial to the manufacturer if their product has a very low warranty return rate as it becomes more profit if there are few warranty claims.
Given that historically we have encountered an exceedingly low number of returns and the fact that these are already expensive due to the parts used in making them, we elected to not pad the price to cover warranty shipping costs and deal with things on an individual basis.
Unfortunately in many cases warranty get abused. We have had 1 fellow try to claim warranty issues due his choice of lubricant. It is not our fault he chose to use gear oil to lube his rifle with, so why should we be held up for the shipping costs when it was blatant stupidity?
Most commodities have warranty clauses that states shipping is not covered.
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
There is a simple solution to this that many manufacturers use. They build in X amount of money into the price of the commodity to cover potential warranty issues. This can be very beneficial to the manufacturer if their product has a very low warranty return rate as it becomes more profit if there are few warranty claims.
Given that historically we have encountered an exceedingly low number of returns and the fact that these are already expensive due to the parts used in making them, we elected to not pad the price to cover warranty shipping costs and deal with things on an individual basis.
Unfortunately in many cases warranty get abused. We have had 1 fellow try to claim warranty issues due his choice of lubricant. It is not our fault he chose to use gear oil to lube his rifle with, so why should we be held up for the shipping costs when it was blatant stupidity?
Most commodities have warranty clauses that states shipping is not covered.
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Rick, what had your warranty work rate on Modern Hunters been aside from the first 75 which it has recently been brought up about the cam pin issue?

You suggest that you have a extremely low rate of warranty work on average, so would 2% coming back for tweaking sound reasonable? If so you should only need to pad the price $10 (Only 0.27% of the cost of a basic Modern Hunter @ $3700) over 100 rifles to cover the shipping and insurance up to $6000 both ways on the 2 rifles out of 100 that may need it.

With this thought in my mind I can not see why you would rather save everyone $10 and leave a few folks with up to a $500 shipping bill for one back and forth cycle for warranty at no fault of there own except for there unfortunate luck? That would make even the best return ATRS customer walk away from doing future business once they get a taste of that, at least in my mind. Its unfortunate really when all it costs is $10. You can't even have a decent lunch on $10 anymore!
 
onetwentyish said:
Rick, what had your warranty work rate on Modern Hunters been aside from the first 75 which it has recently been brought up about the cam pin issue?

You suggest that you have a extremely low rate of warranty work on average, so would 2% coming back for tweaking sound reasonable? If so you should only need to pad the price $10 (Only 0.27% of the cost of a basic Modern Hunter @ $3700) over 100 rifles to cover the shipping and insurance up to $6000 both ways on the 2 rifles out of 100 that may need it.

With this thought in my mind I can not see why you would rather save everyone $10 and leave a few folks with up to a $500 shipping bill for one back and forth cycle for warranty at no fault of there own except for there unfortunate luck? That would make even the best return ATRS customer walk away from doing future business once they get a taste of that, at least in my mind. Its unfortunate really when all it costs is $10. You can't even have a decent lunch on $10 anymore!
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Some good food for thought here. We will ponder on that. Prices on everything are going up anyway, so why not ours?
So far for actual real warranty problems a total of 5 rifles that required coming back for service.
The number with undersized cam pin pockets about 40 uppers, most of which are either local and have been dealt with or shop guns which also have been dealt with.

Thee most expensive shipping was to the Yukon at $210.00 but everything going there is expensive to ship. the joys of living far away from everything.
 
Sounds like you should have no problem then at padding the price $10 or less. There is what, 5 rifles then out of several hundred Modern Hunters? Looks like the most expensive shipping you will come across will be $330 one way to the Yukon insured for $5k, so $660 for both ways. If all 5 rifles were in the Yukon, that's $3300 for shipping both ways. Seems to me over 500 rifles that is $6.60ea, assuming all your warranty work rifles are from the yukon and of a value of $5k.
 
Well, I guess I'd be be a little perturbed if I found out Nissan made the headlights in my Lamborghini Diablo, but then again, I don't own a Lamborghini Diablo so I guess I wouldn't know. Good thing I drive a POS jeep and not a $35,000 "crappy Benz".

Anyway, off to Viet Nam to do some sniping ;)
 
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alberta tactical rifle said:
Before every rifle leaves here we run 20 rounds through it to ensure it functions. That is 4 times a 5 round mag.
It becomes a fine line, at what point do we stop? Does anyone want to purchase a brand new rifle that has 200 or 500 or 1000 rounds put through it just so that we as the manufacturer know that it functions flawlessly?
I doubt any of the big manufacturers run more than a round or 2 through their guns. We feel that if a rifle will run 20 rounds without a hiccup the rifle "should" then be sufficiently tested to run reliably.
There are MANY variables in why a rifle will not cycle, we have identified lubrication as the number 1 problem people have as they wrongly assume that these tight tolerance built rifles will run like a sloppy tolerance battle rifle, which they are NOT!!
It takes a few hundred rounds down range through these before all of the parts are worn in to the point that they cycle like a battle rifle does out of the box, this is called a "break in period".
We have been extremely transparent in the fact that these are built to much tighter tolerances and that unlike a battle rifle that will eat any ammo, our rifle is more selective in its diet.

Tax is never assumed by anyone logical to be part of the price, nor is shipping. Quebec is a GST only province so apart from your choice of living there and having to have a gun shipped to you, the price is the same as buying it here. Buying a car or anything made in the east out west incurs significant shipping costs but I guess that is different? Exaggeration of price is done for effect, just like the yellow journalists employ when reporting a 2 car pile up as multicar. It has a more dramatic effect.
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I'm sorry but I'm not exaggerating anything. If I order the configuration I want from you today, when all is said and done my bank account will be close to 6k lighter. For close to 6k is it to much to ask as a potential buyer that the item performs the way it's supposed to ? And if a product is defective, That the company that sold it to me pays to ship it back to them and guarantees it will be a priority case and a matter of days till the item is returned in perfect functioning order or replaced by one that works? I wouldn't expect it from a crappy Chinese company, but you claim to be high end, and when I buy high end that's what I expect; a high end product, but especially high end service...It is funny you mention Mercedes. I don't know about Alberta, but here if there is a issue with my MB, while under warranty, they send a guy from the dealership to come pick up the car and bring a courtesy replacement for the duration of the repair/ service, free of charge. That is what I expect when I pay more for "high end". I was going to buy a MH until recently reading there where issues with some rifles, compounded by the fact that service was slow/ reluctant and at the buyers cost. Im saddened really because it soured my potential acquisition and put doubts in my mind.Also the fact that they choose to downplay and make light of issues or concerns some buyers or potential buyers may have and attemp to discredit them instead or addressing said concerns does nothing to reassure me... It's a shame, Maybe If I had the chance to put a few boxes through one before buying it alleviate my fears but as it stands I won't be jumping on one just yet...
 
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