Modification that keeps Cap debris out of open top revolvers for good-tested.

[Coachgun67]

Everybody that owns 1860 Army or 1851 Navy Style Colts or copies thereof,knows how annoying caps or cap debris can be...always fall into a corner and either jam the cylinder or prevent the hammer from reaching the next cap... some can be prevented by pointing up or doing a 90 degree wrist twist clockwise right after cocking,which works, but still not all time.
I did a modification to my Pietta 1860 ( chose this one as i still can get parts if I mess up ) that allows me to shoot 6 chambers as fast as I can do with my cartridge fed Ruger Vaquero...without taking the front sight off the target.
This wasn't my idea either...a helpful member pointed out that the original 1861 Manhattan Navy was equipped with a spring plate that held new and spend primers in place, so this gimmick is a little over 150 years old.
I know this looks bubba, but before i really spent time and money for the right size material I wanted to make sure it works, which it did at the first try.
For the spring plate,I used a strip of stainless steel from a hose clamp, It doesn't rust and is springy enough. To hold it in place, simply the nail with the flattest head I could find ( and file that some ) and a drill bit that equals the nails shaft diameter.
The shredded caps stay in place on the nipple,then in the channel at the 1 o clock position and fall off when cocked for the 3rd shot as they reach the open part where you cap them when loading.No chance to go elsewhere. Emptied 3 cylinders ( 32 vol grs Pyrodex fffg,454 cast ball), Remington # 10 and CCI #11 primers , no malfunction.
The whole deal acts like a transfer bar, hammer hits plate, plate hits cap...

CG

 

[lyman54]

That's pretty cool. Good on you for thinking of that. I turned it on the side while cocking which worked ok, but this is a good idea.

 

[H Wally]

Well that is just plain nifty - I like it! I wonder if there's a way to fab it up so that it doesn't require drilling the frame.... like centering it around the ratchet on the cylinder and extending a wing back to hold it in the hammer groove... or just square against the bottom of the frame or something....

 

[BCRider]

That is SWEET! My only issue is if the SASS rule lawyer types would accept this mod for competition use. There is certainly no doubt that it's a slick trick regardless.

Now if you could come up with a way to keep the hot cap shards from falling between my palm and the grip scales where they sear into my delicate ivory like skin I'd be beholden to ya....

 

[Lonesome Donkey]

Full marks for ingenuity. It looks like something that Colt might have patented back in the C&B days, had they thought of it.

However, the nipples with holes cross-drilled through them also solve this problem, and it isn't that difficult to modify the stock nipples in this manner.

 

[Coachgun67]

Well that is just plain nifty - I like it! I wonder if there's a way to fab it up so that it doesn't require drilling the frame.... like centering it around the ratchet on the cylinder and extending a wing back to hold it in the hammer groove... or just square against the bottom of the frame or something....

I thought about your Idea.Given the same material thickness,there is no room in the hammer groove... but the bottom corners could be folded back 45 degrees. This is what a quick change not fixed installation would look like,just held by the corners and the cylinder itself. I have a friend that does CNC plasma cutting, all I need would be the right steel grade.

CG

 

[Coachgun67]

That is SWEET! My only issue is if the SASS rule lawyer types would accept this mod for competition use. There is certainly no doubt that it's a slick trick regardless.

Now if you could come up with a way to keep the hot cap shards from falling between my palm and the grip scales where they sear into my delicate ivory like skin I'd be beholden to ya....

They should accept it...It's a "version" of a U.S. Patent, No 41,848,that was granted in 1864 to Manhattan Fire Arms MFG.Co. in New York, so it fits the time frame.
Now about the hot cap shards...everything mechanical I could come up with would make it impossible to holster and just look too stupid on top of that.
I have that problem too. My solution is fingerless thin leather gloves.Sorry I couldn't offer any smart solution...

CG

 

[Coachgun67]

Full marks for ingenuity. It looks like something that Colt might have patented back in the C&B days, had they thought of it.

However, the nipples with holes cross-drilled through them also solve this problem, and it isn't that difficult to modify the stock nipples in this manner.

I heard of those, but never saw one around here...are they available for Pietta cylinders ( metric 6x1 nipples ) or how big would the hole have to be? Sometimes I miss the Sellier&Bellot caps I had ten years ago, they were stiff enough you had to pry them of the nipples with a screwdriver after shooting

CG

 

[powderman]

The original patent for the spring plate was granted to Ben Kittredge in 1864.

View attachment 83181

Ben Kittredge was a arms dealer in Cincinnati, Ohio.

"Benjamin Kittredge & Company; Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A. Established as ‘Eaton & Kittredge’ in 1845, trading from 236 Main Street, this business made large numbers of cap-lock sporting rifles and shotguns prior to the Civil War. Eaton retired in 1859, leaving Kittredge to continue alone at a variety of addresses on Main Street (perhaps simply periodic renumberings) until the Kittredge Arms Company ceased trading in 1891. Single-shot rifles, including Sharps breechloaders, were ordered by the Federal government in November 1861 (they were presumably already in stock), and a metal cartridge box with a spring-loaded flap was patented on 27th January 1863. A second patent, 41848 of 8th March 1864 (‘Improvement in Revolving Fire-Arms’), was granted for a spring-loaded back-flash deflector embodied in the Manhattan revolver. Kittredge became one of the leading gun dealers in the Midwest, and maintained a branch office ce at 55 St Charles Street, New Orleans, in the 1870s. Kittredge handled many of the earliest Remington cartridge revolvers, and was also responsible for many of the names popularly bestowed on the Colt revolvers—e.g., →Lightning or → Thunderer."

Here are some pics of the spring plate installed on a Manhattan Navy revolver, the only percussion revolver to have a spring plate and may have contributed to the popularity of the Manhattan Navy.

You can see that part of the spring plate has broken off under the hammer nose after 150 years of being flexed. The plate was held on by a screw allowing replacement.

View attachment 83182

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View attachment 83187

Regards,
Powderman

 

[Coachgun67]

BCRider, disregard what I said in post 7 about the history...of course Powderman is right,he was the one having the Manhattan Navys that inspired me to try that out. Altough I found a 3 o clock mount good enough, but with the steels of the past, the 6 o clock may have lasted longer.

CG

 

[Coachgun67]

Powderman, thanks for posting the pics...your description of what is where was pretty good, but it's always interesting to see how they really did it over 150 years ago.
That Manhattan is sure in good shape...what do they retail for if one could find one?

CG

 

[BCRider]

CG and Powderman, thanks to both of you for this information.

 

[Sharps '63]

As a dedicated Remington shooter, I was going to say - "An ingenious solution to a non-existent problem", but I have to admire the thought and the functionality.

As for what the SASS Territorial Governors would have to say about it, compared to the short stroke kits for rifles and now pistols, it is in the same league. Historical accuracy in guns went down the tube a long time ago. I remember when the Henry rifles were disallowed because of their .22LR rifle type of mag tube.

 

[Big_red_truck]

there was another modification i had found that seemed to work well. It consisted of drilling and installing a small post in front of where the cap would be hit by the hammer. that way the hammer would not be able to pull the cap off part way resulting in a jam.

 

[Chuck McCann]

As a dedicated Remington shooter, I was going to say - "An ingenious solution to a non-existent problem", but I have to admire the thought and the functionality.

As for what the SASS Territorial Governors would have to say about it, compared to the short stroke kits for rifles and now pistols, it is in the same league. Historical accuracy in guns went down the tube a long time ago. I remember when the Henry rifles were disallowed because of their .22LR rifle type of mag tube.

Well I've been a Territorial Governor and a SASS RO instructor for a number of years and we've never dealt with approving these type of modifications, that's looked after by the SASS Rules Committee. In order to be legal, an exterior (visible) modification needs to be listed as approved in the rule books. Because the modification is visible with the action closed and hammer down it becomes an exterior modification and not is listed as approved in the rules. It has nothing to do with short stroke kits and other interior modifications.

Also are you talking about the 1860 Henry rifle or the Henry Big Boy? Both of which are legal in some categories but not all for example the Big Boy is legal in all age based categories and B Western but not Classic Cowboy. The 1860 is legal in all age based and Classic Cowboy but not B Western.

Hope this helps clear up any misunderstanding of the SASS rule book.

 

[sail32]

If your looking for modifications that are suitable for Cowboy Action, you might try over at Cascity.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/

 

[infidel29]

Well that is just plain nifty - I like it! I wonder if there's a way to fab it up so that it doesn't require drilling the frame.... like centering it around the ratchet on the cylinder and extending a wing back to hold it in the hammer groove... or just square against the bottom of the frame or something....

why not just use that J-B weld metal epoxy? That stuff is pretty well permanent.

 

[Coachgun67]

why not just use that J-B weld metal epoxy? That stuff is pretty well permanent.

To be able to remove it for cleaning. Having it moving also helps the longevity...stands up pretty good so far, 252 rounds and no visible stress cracks or marks.
I'll post pics again when I'm over the 300 mark.

CG