I am a Berger bullet fan, but I will admit to being interested in Hammer Bullets. Similar to a Cutting Edge and getting very good reviews in the States. Some guys have made the switch to hammers in all their guns. I think I might bring some in this year to try in a few different calibers. With some of the best customer support I have seen and a money back guarantee it's hard not to try them. Maybe if enough of us call them they will start to ship to Canada. Not the highest BC bullet but for 5-700 yds they offer some nice bullets.
Monolithic vs Lead Construction
- Thread starter woodlotowner
- Start date
- Location
- Haliburton County, Central Ontario
So, this was, in part, what precipitated my question in this post. Pictured are a Nosler AccuBond (left) and a Barnes TSX, both in 130 grain leaving the muzzle of my BLR in 270 WSM at around 3,100 to 3,200 fps. Both were recovered under the hide on the down range side, and both were fairly short shots here on the woodlot (around 30 yards for the Nosler and 50 or so for the Barnes). Both bullets performed flawlessly, having expanded well (the Barnes is a textbook case) and dumped all their energy in the deer. The Barnes was a 'bang flop', but the Nosler was a run to the lake and a canoe trip (in November) to retrieve the animal.
My point being, I think that had I use a 140 grain, or even a 150 grain, Nosler I believe I should/would have had results (i.e. no running) more in keeping with the 130 grain monolithic Barnes outcome. Yes, both shots were within inches of the same POI on said deer.
I know these threads on 'best bullets' or 'let's compare bullets' in terms of terminal performance can become a case of opinion pure and simple. When those opinions are based on experience, as they have been here, they are informative indeed. Also, if one is concerned about lead in their game meat, there really is no down side to monolithic bullets in my book. Having said this, a cast bullet will do a fantastic job without the upset and fragmentation.
My point being, I think that had I use a 140 grain, or even a 150 grain, Nosler I believe I should/would have had results (i.e. no running) more in keeping with the 130 grain monolithic Barnes outcome. Yes, both shots were within inches of the same POI on said deer.
I know these threads on 'best bullets' or 'let's compare bullets' in terms of terminal performance can become a case of opinion pure and simple. When those opinions are based on experience, as they have been here, they are informative indeed. Also, if one is concerned about lead in their game meat, there really is no down side to monolithic bullets in my book. Having said this, a cast bullet will do a fantastic job without the upset and fragmentation.
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Sounds to me like more of a case of of an individual animal and a bullet placed in a spot that does not deliver a DRT result (i.e. brain or central nervous system = spine at front shoulders and forward), than a case of a heavier bullet being needed to provide the DRT result you were expecting. Just my 2 cents...
No two animals will react to being shot in the exact same way, as like humans, they are all individuals with different personality characterisitcs.
For example, most of the caribou I have harvested have been quick, cleean harvests with one shot. And they are not known as being overly tough to harvest, like elk or nilgai.
But my first caribou took five rounds into the lung/heart cavity from within 100 yards before sucuumbing to its wounds. All five shots should have done the job individually, but that caribou was tenacious and not about to give up the ghost!
Note: I am not one who will wait for an animal to expire for the sake of a one shot kill. If they are not expiring in an expedient fashion, I will shoot again, as I was taught to not let an animal suffer.
For many years now, if I need a DRT result that needs to quickly anchor an animal so that it cannot make it into a bad position, I will use a high shoulder shot instead of a double lung hit. This had worked very well for me on moose, elk, deer, mountain goat and sheep. It takes some observation of the animal's surroundings and forethought before shooting.
No two animals will react to being shot in the exact same way, as like humans, they are all individuals with different personality characterisitcs.
For example, most of the caribou I have harvested have been quick, cleean harvests with one shot. And they are not known as being overly tough to harvest, like elk or nilgai.
But my first caribou took five rounds into the lung/heart cavity from within 100 yards before sucuumbing to its wounds. All five shots should have done the job individually, but that caribou was tenacious and not about to give up the ghost!
Note: I am not one who will wait for an animal to expire for the sake of a one shot kill. If they are not expiring in an expedient fashion, I will shoot again, as I was taught to not let an animal suffer.
For many years now, if I need a DRT result that needs to quickly anchor an animal so that it cannot make it into a bad position, I will use a high shoulder shot instead of a double lung hit. This had worked very well for me on moose, elk, deer, mountain goat and sheep. It takes some observation of the animal's surroundings and forethought before shooting.
- Location
- Haliburton County, Central Ontario
BlackRam,
I agree, no two shots are identical and the results are less than predictable in every instance. That was one tenacious caribou...
I updated my photo with a much better one.
I agree, no two shots are identical and the results are less than predictable in every instance. That was one tenacious caribou...
I updated my photo with a much better one.
I have moved entirely to TTSXs in my rifles for the lead pollution argument and after having seen excellent performance from other members of my hunting group.
That being said, I witnessed a shot on a white tail that hit a couple inches forward of the ideal shot placement which went through & through and broke the opposite leg without being fatal. After a short bit of tracking and another shot, it was put down, and on close inspection I saw how close the miss was. I really wondered if a less stoutly constructed that shed weight would have done the trick compared to the monolithic holding together.
As others say though, shot placement over bullets, unless you're using a rifle grenade.
That being said, I witnessed a shot on a white tail that hit a couple inches forward of the ideal shot placement which went through & through and broke the opposite leg without being fatal. After a short bit of tracking and another shot, it was put down, and on close inspection I saw how close the miss was. I really wondered if a less stoutly constructed that shed weight would have done the trick compared to the monolithic holding together.
As others say though, shot placement over bullets, unless you're using a rifle grenade.
I have made the same decision. The amount of lead and the distance it travels in the animal are very surprising. I switched to GMX last season and killed three deer all of which dropped immediately.
leveractionjunkie
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Kamloops, BC
I’ve used the GMX on three Mule Deer between 40yrds and 275yrds the only less than impressive kill was the one I effed up and put through the liver rather than up closer to the shoulder where it belonged. But that wasn’t the GMX or Hornadys fault.
So here is my .002 on this.
The primary reason to use a monometal bullet is on game that you are going to eat so that you are not taking nice healthy organic meat and contaminating it with lead. Even bonded bullets will lose 30% of there weight and some of those lead fragments end up as much as 18" from the wound channel. This has been studied enough now that if you are using moderate to high velocity rifles with lead bullets you are going to eat some lead in the meat you consume.
All of that fragmentation however in my opinion creates a more devastating wound and thus lead based bullets have a bit of an edge in killing power. If they were non toxic .... i would use an accubond or similar rather than a monometal.
For monometals like barnes drop the weight and jack up the velocity to get the most out of them. I have shot deer with TTSX's out of a 308 as low as 110 grains with no issues. Increasing the caliber will also help significantly. I use 230 grain TSX's out of my 375 at about 2900 fps and they are utterly devastating. I have one of these that i recovered from a whitetail on a frontal quartering shot. The deer was coming down a steep slope and the bullet smashed the left shoulder and passed through the length of the deer ending up back of the right butt cheek just under the hide.Its the only TSX or TTSX i have ever recovered.
I have killed lots of deer with Barnes bullets. Some of them dropped instantly. Some of them ran a short distance. I could say similar with those i have shot with lead bullets. I also could not tell you why some drop on the spot when you hit the heart and lungs and some don't. I double lunged two this year and both dropped right on the spot. Last year i blew the top half of the heart off of a small buck and he ran 20 - 30 yards. I also shot a doe that year and with a puddle of liquefied lung goo on the ground where i hit it. Chunks of lung tissue along the wound path and a massive foot high blood trail in the tall grass. It ran 20-30 yards as well - go figure
My point being that all of the stories about bang flops versus animals that run a few yards i am not sure mean that much as there are so many things that factor into why that happens.
My advice would be decide if lead is a concern for you. If not use a good bonded bullet. If it is use a mono metal and optimize as above to get the most out of it. If you do your part and hit right they both will cleanly kill.
The primary reason to use a monometal bullet is on game that you are going to eat so that you are not taking nice healthy organic meat and contaminating it with lead. Even bonded bullets will lose 30% of there weight and some of those lead fragments end up as much as 18" from the wound channel. This has been studied enough now that if you are using moderate to high velocity rifles with lead bullets you are going to eat some lead in the meat you consume.
All of that fragmentation however in my opinion creates a more devastating wound and thus lead based bullets have a bit of an edge in killing power. If they were non toxic .... i would use an accubond or similar rather than a monometal.
For monometals like barnes drop the weight and jack up the velocity to get the most out of them. I have shot deer with TTSX's out of a 308 as low as 110 grains with no issues. Increasing the caliber will also help significantly. I use 230 grain TSX's out of my 375 at about 2900 fps and they are utterly devastating. I have one of these that i recovered from a whitetail on a frontal quartering shot. The deer was coming down a steep slope and the bullet smashed the left shoulder and passed through the length of the deer ending up back of the right butt cheek just under the hide.Its the only TSX or TTSX i have ever recovered.
I have killed lots of deer with Barnes bullets. Some of them dropped instantly. Some of them ran a short distance. I could say similar with those i have shot with lead bullets. I also could not tell you why some drop on the spot when you hit the heart and lungs and some don't. I double lunged two this year and both dropped right on the spot. Last year i blew the top half of the heart off of a small buck and he ran 20 - 30 yards. I also shot a doe that year and with a puddle of liquefied lung goo on the ground where i hit it. Chunks of lung tissue along the wound path and a massive foot high blood trail in the tall grass. It ran 20-30 yards as well - go figure
My point being that all of the stories about bang flops versus animals that run a few yards i am not sure mean that much as there are so many things that factor into why that happens.
My advice would be decide if lead is a concern for you. If not use a good bonded bullet. If it is use a mono metal and optimize as above to get the most out of it. If you do your part and hit right they both will cleanly kill.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
Yup, or you're trying to limit meat/pelt damage. Shoot a mono and then a lead core of the same weight/caliber/velocity at a steel gong at distance and the impact sound generated is something even my deaf ears can pick up. The smack isn't there.
An older (first generation) 130 grain 270 Barnes recovered from the neck of a mule deer lost 1/2 grain.
The 250 grain 338 Nosler lost over 30% which would have been lead from the frontal area.
I forgot they were still in my library.
dgradinaru
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- British Columbia
I have used Hornaday 180 gr GMX in my 8x57 Mauser at 2700fps. Shot 3 deer. No recovered bullets but damage seemed normal, so expansion seemed good. I think the bullet is better served for magnums with high velocity. I like cup and core for standard cartridges.
Just 3 nights ago someone thought they had a damaged filling at our table because she found a piece of metal in her ground meat. It was a shard of lead because the moose in the freezer was shot with a lead bullet. That's enough of a reason for me. My hunting buddies are half switched over to barnes so I still get my share of possible lead in my meat.
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
The only lead if recovered at the diner table has been two lead pellets from an air rifle from whitetail rump roasts from two seasons ago, I’m sure that deer was in someone’s garden and took a couple pellet rifle hits to the ass end lol. Haven’t found any lead fragments from any of the bullets I shot them with.
leveractionjunkie
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Kamloops, BC
Trouble I have is not all of the pieces and or contamination are found or noticeable.
http://www.leadfreehunting.com/lead-in-game-meat
Between my son and I, we have killed well over 300 big game animals with lead core bullets, and NEVER found one piece of lead. Only one hunting season we utilized monolithic bullets (Barnes Triple Shock), never again. Pencil size entry/exit woulds and almost two lost whitetail bucks.
It is curious why there are reports (this one is not unique) of mono bullets not expanding. This was my concern when I made the switch. I actually had some ELD-X as back-up ammo last season. However, I found that even on a white-tail doe that was shot through the ribs and heart (not much resistance) I had impressive expansion with 6.5mm GMXs. I am happy that my loads worked because I do not want any lead in my meat. The reports that I read regarding lead in meat indicated that many of the pieces of lead were as small as a grain of pepper. Therefore, you may be eating it without knowing it.
While there may not be a surefire way to ensure that you are not getting any lead in your meat without using an xray machine, I have never really thought/worried about it too much, as when you are cutting and wrapping your meat and making your hamburger, good practices of cleaning your meat, especially that found around the wound cavities, has eliminated the potential for finding it in my food when I am eating. At least I haven't found any in mine. Have had grouse at a frends many years ago and had a shotgun 7 1/2 pellet or two, but again, I think this was just missed in preparation, which goes back to cleaning and prepping properly.
Would be interesting to see what an actual study has found of the lost lead from a bullet in an animal. Exactly what form does it take or become in that bone and tissue upon impact and penetration, and how far into that bone or tissue does that go? What are the signs to indicate it is there so that it can be cleaned from the meat? Is most of it found in the bloodshot tissue?
Would be interesting to see what an actual study has found of the lost lead from a bullet in an animal. Exactly what form does it take or become in that bone and tissue upon impact and penetration, and how far into that bone or tissue does that go? What are the signs to indicate it is there so that it can be cleaned from the meat? Is most of it found in the bloodshot tissue?
