Montana Vintage Arms Vernier on an 1886

Devlin

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Hey Folks,

Looking for opinions on the thought of putting a vernier style peep sight similar to the one at the link below to get some more accuracy out of a beloved rifle in my collection. The rifle is a Turnbull 1886 in 45-70. Wondering what people's opinions are on this style of sight and how much it aids accuracy? I've been intrigued by this style of sight since discovering the Sagebrush Longshots youtube channel, where these see extensive use on a variety of rifles.

Not that it matters greatly but would putting a sight like this one this style of rifle "ruin" the gun? It's a Mirokou 1886 that Turnbull refinished so while nice and means a lot to me it's not a collector grade Winchester or anything like that.

montanavintagearms.com/product/sights/103-long-range-buffalo/
 
I think it’s overkill, personally. That sight is more suited for a single shot shot off a bench (shooting sticks) BPCR rifle, ie, Shiloh, C Sharps, or a 1885. What would look nice for you Japchester 1886 rifle is MVA combination front and rear https://montanavintagearms.com/product/sights/mva/mva-combination-rear-sights/ However if you really want vernier, get the MVA #133 vernier tang.
 
Thanks johnl, I had been looking at that option as well. I use the rifle for plinking at the range primarily and our range only goes out to 300 yards, though the thought of reaching out further with one of the Vernier style sights is also intriguing to me, though I suspect your right they are more suited to the Sharps style rifles for BPCR...not exactly what the 1886 was built for.
 
Devlin

Here are my single shots. They all have MVA vernier sights. The Buffalo long range is on my 50-90 16# bull barrel. Look at the close up on the second picture. I too have a Japchester Browning 86. Just never got around to getting tang sights for it. My opinion is the long range sights are overkill for our 86’s. YMMV:)



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MOTHER OF GOD! Those are some fabulous rifles sir!

A sharps is on my list to own one day for the longer range plinking and maybe even get into the BPCR world.
 
Hey Devlin, thanks for the kind words. I sold off a lot of nice handguns to get those rifles. Check out Shiloh Sharps forum out of Montana, checkout their website too:) Sometimes Shiloh has rifles ready to sell (off the rack) but if you want to custom order there is a 2 year wait list. Another option is Bill Goodman. Google Bill Goodman guns. Good luck and have fun.
 
OP, I would suggest getting the #101 Mid Range Soule, tall enough to get to 1000 yds for most loads and windage adjustment is a must to reliably hit targets at distance. I agree with Johnl that your first choice is out of proportion esthetics wise. I just installed the #101 on an 1885 Mikoru and was surprised to find it has 3 detents, one upright for shooting, but also one with the staff rested froward and another for rested rear. This keeps the rested sight neatly secure but off the wood or metal which you don't want marred.
 
Hey Folks,

Looking for opinions on the thought of putting a vernier style peep sight similar to the one at the link below to get some more accuracy out of a beloved rifle in my collection. The rifle is a Turnbull 1886 in 45-70. Wondering what people's opinions are on this style of sight and how much it aids accuracy? I've been intrigued by this style of sight since discovering the Sagebrush Longshots youtube channel, where these see extensive use on a variety of rifles.

Not that it matters greatly but would putting a sight like this one this style of rifle "ruin" the gun? It's a Mirokou 1886 that Turnbull refinished so while nice and means a lot to me it's not a collector grade Winchester or anything like that.

montanavintagearms.com/product/sights/103-long-range-buffalo/

take a peek here: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/883/1?PageSize=100

might save yourself $400! might be a couple models there that will work for the 1886 - also you can call them and ask :)
 
Man-o-man OP you kicked open a door with this one that could take pages to fully examine.

First of all don't eat that about the Buffalo rifles are the only thing worth putting a vernier site on cuz that's horse-sh!t LOL. Fact is, not all lever guns will hit an 800 yrd gong but same goes for a $3500 Sharps...some will & some won't. For an excellent reference to long range shooting with lever guns go to both Marlinowners.com and also LevergunScoundrels, look for any threads mentioning "The Happening at the U-Pick Sagebrush Ranch" yearly shoots that were held until Wind died a couple years ago ( they might still be held as a tribute to Wind by his buddies). These boys shot nothing but lever guns at 400-1000 yards for a week every year, and used every sight from tang verniers to tang Marbles types to Skinner receiver mounted to plain ol' original barrel sights too a great degree of success . If the Quigly pail shot is possible with a Sharps, these guys could surely do it with their lever guns.

Personally I have a love-hate relationship with the Verniers... quite simply they have been used since the 1850's because nobody has come up with a better option that wont hide the target with that big ol' barrel at further distances....BUT...they are not a simple "install and go shoot something at 800 yards" proposition. I have come up with a better "long range" option for one of my Lever-guns but its not going to be a commercial offering because it expensive to build and the howls of derision that it will bring out of the "purist" aboard would be deafening, however the limited amount of testing I have done so far has been very encouraging.

To the OP I will say, don't think I am trying to discourage you from going down the Vernier road as that sure isn't what I'm suggesting as long range shooting with a pumpkin chucker is something every owner should enjoy. It's just that you should be aware of a few idiosyncrasies that can discourage you if your not prepared for them. First off, a vernier can have more parallax (for lack of a better description) than the worst scope you could ever buy but as with a scope with parallax, diligent posturing & repeatable positioning can overcome the worst of it. The fact is that you can lean over a bench with your sand bags and shoot your rifle in at 100-200-300-400 yards and mark your vernier for the appropriate height at each distance. Now stand up and shoot the same distances at the appropriate vernier markings (free hand or with the "sticks" it matters not) and I will bet money that you may be hard pressed to hit 20% of your targets at the different ranges. The problem being is that going from sitting to standing you have changed the eyeball-front sight- target relationship and this throws your vernier sight-in session to the wind.

There is a simple exercise that a neophyte vernier user can do to prove my point and can be done on the kitchen table or down a hall way. Set your rifle on a stack of books the same height as you would with a sandbag and rest the butt on the table. Have your vernier set for a 100 yard distance and snuggle up to the butt stock same as you would for real, now sight the rifle on a spot or something on a wall or out a window same as you would for a real 100 yard shot. Now hold the rifle still and change the vernier setting up for a 300 yard shot...now, remember not to move the rifle and look thru the vernier at the front sight still on the distant target( now your imagining that target is at 300 yards)...if you were to pull the trigger on that 300 yard target would you hit it...not a chance, even though you have a plain 300 yard sight picture you haven't changed the gun elevation...it is still at the 100 yard trajectory setting.

Now it should be evident that unless the plane of your eyeball-front sight-target is absolutely the same at any distance at the sight-in posture, the vernier aperture cannot be placed with any certainty of repeated hits. The other way of saying the same thing is that you can set your vernier for any distance you want and place your face against the stock and get a perfect sight picture at any distant target with no guarantee that the rifle orientation will be correct for the trajectory required.
 
The 1886 will absolutely do long range! Build up a good load (preferably BP ;) ) and practice lots. You won't be technically as good as a single shot, but you'll probably hold your own against most shooters out to 1000 meters.

I LOVE my No.100 Long Range Soule on my 1874 Sharps. Amazing quality and couldn't recommend it more. The rifle is in 45-70 and with 545 grain bullets I definitely have needed the extra height of the long range over the mid range sight. I also had a Pedersoli sight for an 1894 Winchester at one point and it was night and day between the quality of the two. The biggest issue with any vernier tang sight is to make sure you have the correct base, as the cycling of the action with hit the staff with the wrong base. MVA has amazing customer service and will get you sorted completely. They even made me a base with custom dimensions at no extra charge for one of my rifles.

Any vernier you go with, I recommend an adjustable eyecup of some kind, whether Hadley style or otherwise. It makes target shooting much more pleasant in variable lighting conditions. I also highly recommend some form of globe front sight. For your Winchester probably a combination front sight like the one MVA produces. A better sight picture than just a vernier sight and a blade front.
 
Thanks for all the responses guys, lots to consider and somewhat torn on which way to go on this. I like the idea of being able to make attempts at shooting out at extreme distances with this rifle and am not unfamiliar with the long range world having shot F class in the past. What I am curious about is what sort of ranges could you reach out to with just the classic tang style sight that johnl suggests at this link https://montanavintagearms.com/product/sights/mva/original-1886-winchester-rear-combo-sight/

I have regular access to a 300 yard range with plates and that is where 95% of my shooting takes place, so as much as the idea of making hits out beyond that is very appealing I don't have regular access to extended ranges and if history is any teacher precision comes after a lot of practice at those distances. The front sight on my rifle is a simple brass bead and at 100 yards and under has worked ok for me, so not sure how critical a component to upgrade that is in this sort of scenario.

I would like to hunt with this rifle a bit more and hopefully see a moose fall to it at some point down the road, which is why I am curious about the abilities of the sight I reference above as it seems more apt to hunting scenarios. But one rifle can't be equal in all scenarios so I suppose the option of swapping back and forth between sights is also on the table if the base mount is universal across the MVA range of sights. The hunting scenario is really the other 5% of what I want to do with this rifle, it's primary point in life is making hits with a what I consider a classic old gun.
 
Maybe check out the Marbles Improved Peep Tang Sight. Windage and Elevation adjustment, with different heights of stems. They don't look so out of place on an 1886, and work well. Also threaded for an adjustable eye cup. No drilling and tapping required.
Just a suggestion.

R.
 
My Browning '86 came with a junker tang sight which was quickly scrapped. It does quite well from the sitting position with the factory barrel sight out to 200m with the ramp at maximum elevation. In order to hit a steel ram at that distance (the max we use for our CAS event) I have to hold the bead at the height of the ram's curl over his back. Then it's - "Bang! Clang!"

I've never regarded it as a "long range rifle" and the two moose it's taken were no further than 75 yds.

Never occurred to me to mount a tang sight on it., especially when I have two Shiloh 45-70s mounted with MVA verniers. We see lots of tang sights on CAS rifles/carbines for use on targets at pistol distances with pop-gun loads. Never quite understood the need for them for that application but some people make it work.

Johnl was right about checking the Shiloh site for rifles ready to go. My #1 Sporter was off that list and I couldn't be happier with it. It has all the bells, gongs and whistles I would have ordered without the wait. A friend ordered the identical rifle with AAA wood and high grade finish. Doesn't look a whole better than mine and he waited two years for it as the Canadian dollar devalued.
 
Yes I hear you on the it not being a long distance rifle, if I want to go pound paper at 1000 yards the Accuracy International is coming out to play first and foremost. As for taking a moose with it, I wouldn't attempt anything beyond a 100 yards myself with the open sights from a hunting position just based off my own skill level and personal ethics.

I don't see the buckhorn/ramp style sights well myself and also interested in if a peep style makes it any easier to group better at distance.

In time a Sharps will make it into my gun rack just have to obey the laws laid down by the Mistress of Finance and Social Affairs.
 
Yes I hear you on the it not being a long distance rifle, if I want to go pound paper at 1000 yards the Accuracy International is coming out to play first and foremost. As for taking a moose with it, I wouldn't attempt anything beyond a 100 yards myself with the open sights from a hunting position just based off my own skill level and personal ethics.

I don't see the buckhorn/ramp style sights well myself and also interested in if a peep style makes it any easier to group better at distance.

In time a Sharps will make it into my gun rack just have to obey the laws laid down by the Mistress of Finance and Social Affairs.

I share your hunting ethics. I will not shoot at an animal beyond 200 yds with ANY rifle. It isn't a matter of hitting it, it's a matter of dropping it. I've had to track wounded animals twice for over estimating my abilities and underestimating the distance. Didn't find one and hopefully he survived as three legged deer. Never again .....

I'm lucky. My "Mistress of Finance & Social Affairs" buys her own guns! This morning she bought herself a Winchester/Miroku 'Short Rifle' in 44-40 to match her Pietta 44-40 revolvers.

As for your desire to own a Sharps, I remember being in the Shiloh shop drooling over the rifles on display. They were way beyond my pay grade at the time. I was asked which one I would choose if I could have one and went right to the "Business Rifle". That was a first for her and she asked me why. I said because it looked like a Buffalo Hunter's rifle like the original in the display case.

Ironically, my first Shiloh was a Business Rifle I swapped an original High Wall in 40-60 for. Now there are six Shiloh rifles in the rack, all .45s or .50s; percussion and cartridge. I do feel blessed.
 
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Yes I hear you on the it not being a long distance rifle, if I want to go pound paper at 1000 yards the Accuracy International is coming out to play first and foremost. As for taking a moose with it, I wouldn't attempt anything beyond a 100 yards myself with the open sights from a hunting position just based off my own skill level and personal ethics.

I don't see the buckhorn/ramp style sights well myself and also interested in if a peep style makes it any easier to group better at distance.

In time a Sharps will make it into my gun rack just have to obey the laws laid down by the Mistress of Finance and Social Affairs.

I'm lucky. My "Mistress of Finance & Social Affairs" buys her own guns! This morning she bought herself a Winchester/Miroku 'Short Rifle' in 44-40 to match her Pietta 44-40 revolvers.

As for your desire to own a Sharps, I remember being in the Shiloh shop drooling over the rifles on display. They were way beyond my pay grade at the time. I was asked which one I would choose if I could have one and went right to the "Business Rifle". That was a first for her and she asked me why. I said because it looked like a Buffalo Hunter's rifle like the original in the display case.

Ironically, my first Shiloh was a Business Rifle I swapped an original High Wall in 40-60 for. Now there are six Shiloh rifles in the rack, all .45s or .50s; percussion and cartridge. I do feel blessed.
 
I have a Uberti High Wall in .45-70 Govt which will be getting the MVA Winchester Model 5 scope on it later this year when I go over and collect it. Right now I shoot out to 600 yards with a medium range tang sight stolen off another rifle, and manage to connect mostly - nothing exciting though. Wisht I could have gotten the version with the 'kinder' butt-plate, but beggars can't be choosers, and it WAS half price, including a box of 18 rounds. Firing just two was enough for the original owner to trade it in - mind you, they were 405gr JSP meant for the Ruger No1.
 
Out for some shooting this afternoon with a plinking load I use in this rifle and these are the groups at 100 yards that I was able to manage with the notch style open sight setup on the rifle. The load is a 405 Grain TLG hardcast lead RNFP BB from the bullet barn with 13 grains of Unique, Lee Factory crimp and CCI BR2 primers, the load data is from here http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm


I don't know what to make of these groups to be very honest, I think they could be better with a more experienced iron sights shooter and perhaps someone with better eye sight and marksmanship fundamentals but interested in this groups thoughts. These were shot at 100 yards rested off a bench.

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You did not disgrace yourself or the rifle by any means! That was a pretty tame load, though. Try stepping it up a little. Lots of good loads out there to try - Varget, 5744, 4198, 3031 are all good with the 45-70 and don't kick the snot out of you.

LOVE your range! Where is it?
 
Range is Twin City Rifle Club just outside of Kitchener. Great spot and one of the few around here that get out to 300 yards.

I've got a few pounds of Varget and 4198 on hand so may try those out as well. The 13 grain load of Unique is very tame and makes the rifle feel like a .223 nearly.
 
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