More 858 questions from a newbie
- Thread starter czechitout
- Start date
czechitout said:M .. explain that barrel mount to me pls. Does it attach in front of the upper forearm piece or does it replace the upper and lower furniture? I don't get it visually in my head.
( I know .. you can call me stupid later)
I could not get my head round it either so I emailed him about it. Aparently it is a barrel mount that has nothing to do with forearm. It mounts on the barrel in front of the forearm. Quite simple really
Flobalob said:I could not get my head round it either so I emailed him about it. Aparently it is a barrel mount that has nothing to do with forearm. It mounts on the barrel in front of the forearm. Quite simple really
Ya .. that's NOT for me. It might work but I think it will look butt ugly! I am all for the side mount though. Any more pics of 858's with his accesories in place?
We gotta order ASAP bro .. can't wait to see this stuff!!
You are right ... I wanted to have a couple pics to show my machinist buddy incase this falls through on you .. talked to my buddy, showed him what i had anyway .. might be cost prohibitive. I really hope you can acquire these mounts and hold the door open for the rest of us!!
I have just told him I want to order a side mount kit. He asked for a money wire, but that will cost $30 which is a lot when you consider the mount costs $65 US. I have asked if a bank draft in USD will be OK, I expect it will but will have to wait until tomorow to find out. He says he will send my order and invoice me, so I have no doubt he is trusting.
Here is his website........ http://www.hubertlov.cz/armadu/weaver.html
Email address....... techhelp@oktarget.cz
PS his name is Ladislav Dekany, tell him you have been speaking to Mick Boon.
Shot my 858 today for the first time, shoots reall good and the sights are spot on ( wish I could say the same for my eyes ) as is but that czech ammo shoots a foot high at 100 yds. It's the most filthy stuff I have ever come across apart from BP.
Here is his website........ http://www.hubertlov.cz/armadu/weaver.html
Email address....... techhelp@oktarget.cz
PS his name is Ladislav Dekany, tell him you have been speaking to Mick Boon.
Shot my 858 today for the first time, shoots reall good and the sights are spot on ( wish I could say the same for my eyes ) as is but that czech ammo shoots a foot high at 100 yds. It's the most filthy stuff I have ever come across apart from BP.
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Bugaboo_CZ
Member
- Location
- Czech Republic
The mount on the foreguard is not ideal but I know people here use it and they put some more work into it and make it tight. The work is done and the front where you hook the upper part into the slots. After that it works fine.
There is a manufacturer of sort of RIS thing that replaces the standard resin foreguard but they are impossible to deal with, they just seem to be uninterested to sell.
There is a manufacturer of sort of RIS thing that replaces the standard resin foreguard but they are impossible to deal with, they just seem to be uninterested to sell.
Bugaboo_CZ said:
If it did not have to be moved all the time for cleaning I might have considerd it.
What is your opinion of this Czech sight mount Bugaboo, is it well made and strong ? Do you know the height above the top of the reciever ?
Thanks
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Second time shooting my new 858 today and I have to say I am well pleased. The first quick blast I had was not an attempt to see what it was capable of as such but just to get the feel of it. It was shooting about 13" high with the Czech military surplus, so after reading the handbook I adjusted the front sight up two turns and a nudge. I shot three shots from a bench rest at 100 and toodled off down range to see where the bullets were going, they were going just where I wanted. I then shot four rounds but this time really taking my time, this gave me a group of under 2", which with iron sights and my old eyes is a bloody miracle.
Next I put up a 10" paper plate at 200 and ajusted my sights accordingly, I could on'y just about make out the 4" black black dot I had made in the middle when looking through the sights, but never the less all five shots hit the 10" plate. Back to 100 and with a very rapid fire five shots,I had a five and a half inch group.
This rifle is fantastic ! With a decent scope mount set up and a red dot I don't think there will be anything that can touch it.
Next I put up a 10" paper plate at 200 and ajusted my sights accordingly, I could on'y just about make out the 4" black black dot I had made in the middle when looking through the sights, but never the less all five shots hit the 10" plate. Back to 100 and with a very rapid fire five shots,I had a five and a half inch group.
This rifle is fantastic ! With a decent scope mount set up and a red dot I don't think there will be anything that can touch it.
Scarecrow said:Flobalob I hope you remembered to give your gun a bath after that corrosive ammo.
Well as it happens I did not
The first time I cleaned it I washed the bore with boiling water from the kettle and ended up poring it over my left hand . This time I decided to follow the instructions given in the handbook that came with the rifle. It is beside me now as I type,( the rifle that is ) I will check it to see if there is any signs of corrosion before I go to bed.That did enter my tiny mind hr but I did not have anything suitable.
Eleven hours have passed since I cleaned the rifle and there are no signs of corrosion. It's just as clean as if I had used boiling water. I think the people that make these know how they should be cleaned.
I may have gone overboard with the WD 40, but apart from that I cleaned it by the book. It's also a lot quicker than bathing everything.
Eleven hours have passed since I cleaned the rifle and there are no signs of corrosion. It's just as clean as if I had used boiling water. I think the people that make these know how they should be cleaned.
I may have gone overboard with the WD 40, but apart from that I cleaned it by the book. It's also a lot quicker than bathing everything.
Bugaboo_CZ
Member
- Location
- Czech Republic
Flobalob,
the mount you posted looks fine. It should do the job for you, however i dont know anybody who owns and runs it. The rifle is a cheap solution here, so people who dont want to spend a lot of money go for this. usually people who want to play with the rifle go for AR15.
This mount is designed to go over the metal cover in the back so if the scope is not very long, especially in the forward direction, it should be OK. The question is if you realy want to put a rifle scope on a rifle like this. It shoots nicely but it is not a sniper rifle.
The red-dot mounting on the foregueard works very good here. If you want it tight just add some material in the front slots where you hook the piston cover - some hard resin or plastic or even better some metal (I dont know the name of the technique but you use hammer and some pointy tool to hammer thin wire in place, sort of fill the space). I personally know people who never bothered and have it a little loose and shoot reasonably well.
AND... The same Company that made the mount you posted makes Picatini 1913 rails you just have to screw onto the foreguard. That is probably the way I will go; a little work on the foreguard and that is it. But I still use the iron sights
And last: with the cleaning you should be OK with what you did. Pay attention to the piston, it is hard to clean well but necessary. If the surface is scratched DONT polish or lap it!!! Bad Juju, the front part needs to fit tight into the gas port. Next thing is the extractor area. Otherwise the rest is ok to clean quickly after each shooting and once upon a time thoroughly, even striping the breach assembly. If you have the Chrome lined barrel Bore Snake works miracles, the original cleaning stuff is not a marvel of industrial design, I am afraid.
the mount you posted looks fine. It should do the job for you, however i dont know anybody who owns and runs it. The rifle is a cheap solution here, so people who dont want to spend a lot of money go for this. usually people who want to play with the rifle go for AR15.
This mount is designed to go over the metal cover in the back so if the scope is not very long, especially in the forward direction, it should be OK. The question is if you realy want to put a rifle scope on a rifle like this. It shoots nicely but it is not a sniper rifle.
The red-dot mounting on the foregueard works very good here. If you want it tight just add some material in the front slots where you hook the piston cover - some hard resin or plastic or even better some metal (I dont know the name of the technique but you use hammer and some pointy tool to hammer thin wire in place, sort of fill the space). I personally know people who never bothered and have it a little loose and shoot reasonably well.
AND... The same Company that made the mount you posted makes Picatini 1913 rails you just have to screw onto the foreguard. That is probably the way I will go; a little work on the foreguard and that is it. But I still use the iron sights
And last: with the cleaning you should be OK with what you did. Pay attention to the piston, it is hard to clean well but necessary. If the surface is scratched DONT polish or lap it!!! Bad Juju, the front part needs to fit tight into the gas port. Next thing is the extractor area. Otherwise the rest is ok to clean quickly after each shooting and once upon a time thoroughly, even striping the breach assembly. If you have the Chrome lined barrel Bore Snake works miracles, the original cleaning stuff is not a marvel of industrial design, I am afraid.
Bugaboo_CZ said:
It's a cheap option here too. I had a converted to semi only 58 many years ago and I really liked it, that's why I ended up getting my 858. What is the price of an 858 in your country ?
Bugaboo_CZ said:
I fully agree with you and It shoots very nicely, but is is difficult for me to focus on the rear sight as I am long sighted nowadays. If I wear my glasses I can see the rear sight clearly, but then the target is out of focus. A red dot would make it far more pleasant for me to use. I don't like the front handguard option as it is not a proper job. With the removable side mount system should be solid ( I hope ) .
Bugaboo_CZ said:
I have checked out my rifle and can see what you mean. ( I don't know what it's called either
)The problem with my rifle is that there is also side to side movement in the upper handguard. I know if I use this system it would defeat the object of installing it and I would be better off with iron sights.Thanks Bugaboo
Bugaboo_CZ
Member
- Location
- Czech Republic
When you install in this part of the rifle (I dont know what type of sighting device you are thinking about) just make sure it does NOT interfere with ejection. It should not as the system ejects up AND sideways, but a long low-mounted scope might get in the way.
Re: disassembly issue
If you know how the rifle comes apart you probably know the answer, the back cover has to go up as well as the bolt carrier group. You also have to insert the springs properly into the carrier. If the mount does not have to be removed it will be an obstacle during striping and assembly of the rifle.
You see the rifle was never meant to have a scope or red dot installed. The IR sights mount I posted has a rail on the receiver and the sight comes off with the mount together, only the rail on the receiver stays in place. Even though the irons have settings up to 1000 metres it reflects rather the hopes of the designers than the abilities of the average grunt. The avarage grunt cant hit a barn standing inside of it.
The CZ Company has mountains of parts from the Commie times and they want to get rid of it. So they figured they can sell it on the civilian maket and designed a conversion. They also want to give people the posibilities to mount stuff on the rifle, because now it is IN to do "tactical" stuff, but the original design has its limitations. Dont get me wrong, I like Czech "fire-sport-tools" and the rifle is a nice design - for 1958. If you compare it to M16/AR15 system you will understand that: the market for M16/AR15 is much larger and a lot of money and time was put into developing a lot of options for it. The original market for 858T/Hermex 2000 is much smaller (population of the Czech Republic is 10 mil, how many shooters out of that number?, army doesnt have the funds to buy more toys) and the CZ Company is not exactly flexible in terms of demand-driven design. All the parts you see are aftermarket parts from very small operations.
I actually would put more hope in, for example, Mr. Dlask. I have his AR15, very nice rifle. He is Czech and most likely knows the rifle inside out. I am afraid the whole furniture needs a re-disgning to accomodate all the desired features. There is a Slovak Company called Magic and they make a RIS system replacing the whole foreguard. But you have to unscrew some screws for field striping !!! And they are pain in the backside to deal with, dont ask how I know. Finaly the price is the same as the complete rifle here.
Huh, I can type, cant I? So finaly the price: CZ Hermex 200 is 245.00 CAD; 858 Tac is 255.00 CAD.
Re: disassembly issue
If you know how the rifle comes apart you probably know the answer, the back cover has to go up as well as the bolt carrier group. You also have to insert the springs properly into the carrier. If the mount does not have to be removed it will be an obstacle during striping and assembly of the rifle.
You see the rifle was never meant to have a scope or red dot installed. The IR sights mount I posted has a rail on the receiver and the sight comes off with the mount together, only the rail on the receiver stays in place. Even though the irons have settings up to 1000 metres it reflects rather the hopes of the designers than the abilities of the average grunt. The avarage grunt cant hit a barn standing inside of it.
The CZ Company has mountains of parts from the Commie times and they want to get rid of it. So they figured they can sell it on the civilian maket and designed a conversion. They also want to give people the posibilities to mount stuff on the rifle, because now it is IN to do "tactical" stuff, but the original design has its limitations. Dont get me wrong, I like Czech "fire-sport-tools" and the rifle is a nice design - for 1958. If you compare it to M16/AR15 system you will understand that: the market for M16/AR15 is much larger and a lot of money and time was put into developing a lot of options for it. The original market for 858T/Hermex 2000 is much smaller (population of the Czech Republic is 10 mil, how many shooters out of that number?, army doesnt have the funds to buy more toys) and the CZ Company is not exactly flexible in terms of demand-driven design. All the parts you see are aftermarket parts from very small operations.
I actually would put more hope in, for example, Mr. Dlask. I have his AR15, very nice rifle. He is Czech and most likely knows the rifle inside out. I am afraid the whole furniture needs a re-disgning to accomodate all the desired features. There is a Slovak Company called Magic and they make a RIS system replacing the whole foreguard. But you have to unscrew some screws for field striping !!! And they are pain in the backside to deal with, dont ask how I know. Finaly the price is the same as the complete rifle here.
Huh, I can type, cant I? So finaly the price: CZ Hermex 200 is 245.00 CAD; 858 Tac is 255.00 CAD.
Bugaboo
I will be using a small reflex red dot, it will not get in the way of ejecting cases.
The mount fits on a rail which is screwed to the bottom of the reciever, I think it's designed to be quick release. It is the same system as the IR mount that you posted.
If 858's were $ 255 over here I would have bought two. I would guess that $255 CAD in the Czech Republic is quite a lot of money ?
The one and only thing I don't like about the rifle is the resin/ wood chip stocks. Is it possible to find real wood stocks where you come from ?
PS I can't understand why this this tactical stuff is "IN", I think most of it is worse than useless, a waste of money, and looks bloody stupid.
I will be using a small reflex red dot, it will not get in the way of ejecting cases.
The mount fits on a rail which is screwed to the bottom of the reciever, I think it's designed to be quick release. It is the same system as the IR mount that you posted.
If 858's were $ 255 over here I would have bought two. I would guess that $255 CAD in the Czech Republic is quite a lot of money ?
The one and only thing I don't like about the rifle is the resin/ wood chip stocks. Is it possible to find real wood stocks where you come from ?
PS I can't understand why this this tactical stuff is "IN", I think most of it is worse than useless, a waste of money, and looks bloody stupid.
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Bugaboo_CZ
Member
- Location
- Czech Republic
Flobalob,
I thought you will go for reflex sight. The question is whether the mount, even quick-detach one, will maintain zero after removal and mounting again. I know sniper rifles have mounts like this but is this one as good? All I am trying to say is: is the thing you are trying to achieve achievable? Like I said I dont have experience with this mount. But I thing you are able to draw the conclusions what is right for you.
Re the price: if the rifle is any cheaper it has to be second hand. A cheaper new one I would be afraid to shoot it. Just for your info, if you can get a special permit for full auto weapons here, not easy but possible, the rifle would be about 130 CAD The semi auto rifle costs slightly more then nice shoes for your smart suit... I dont know if it is a lot of money, if you are not illiterate with a lousy job or without one you should be able to buy the rifle. For comparison Glock 17/19 or CZ 75 costs something like 890 CAD here.
Re wooden furniture: there is beech furniture. It has been put on the rifles in the beginning. The resin/wooden chip stuff is ugly, I know. It is possible to buy the wooden furniture here, but it is usually older stuff removed from old rifles in repair facilities. It is hard to find a matching set. The particullar pieces have a slightly different color. but you can remove the old resin paint and apply linseed oil or bee wax and the color should be the same. Check pictures posted by Deckard (where does he get them I dont know, maybe espionage ), you can find it in those pics.
Finaly dont let me discourage you, I am just trying to present a different train of thought. I know it helps ME when I need to make a decission like this and usually I make my oposition myself.
I hope you will like the rifle. Let me know about the result, please.
I thought you will go for reflex sight. The question is whether the mount, even quick-detach one, will maintain zero after removal and mounting again. I know sniper rifles have mounts like this but is this one as good? All I am trying to say is: is the thing you are trying to achieve achievable? Like I said I dont have experience with this mount. But I thing you are able to draw the conclusions what is right for you.
Re the price: if the rifle is any cheaper it has to be second hand. A cheaper new one I would be afraid to shoot it. Just for your info, if you can get a special permit for full auto weapons here, not easy but possible, the rifle would be about 130 CAD
The semi auto rifle costs slightly more then nice shoes for your smart suit... I dont know if it is a lot of money, if you are not illiterate with a lousy job or without one you should be able to buy the rifle. For comparison Glock 17/19 or CZ 75 costs something like 890 CAD here.Re wooden furniture: there is beech furniture. It has been put on the rifles in the beginning. The resin/wooden chip stuff is ugly, I know. It is possible to buy the wooden furniture here, but it is usually older stuff removed from old rifles in repair facilities. It is hard to find a matching set. The particullar pieces have a slightly different color. but you can remove the old resin paint and apply linseed oil or bee wax and the color should be the same. Check pictures posted by Deckard (where does he get them I dont know, maybe espionage
), you can find it in those pics.Finaly dont let me discourage you, I am just trying to present a different train of thought. I know it helps ME when I need to make a decission like this and usually I make my oposition myself.
I hope you will like the rifle. Let me know about the result, please.
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Bugaboo
I made more enquiries. The mount is not quick release, but it is not slow release either. The mount attatches to a scope rail exactly as the rail on the rifle with the IR mount you posted a picture of earlier. I am told the top of the mount sit's close to the top of the reciever and will maintain zero when refited to the sight rail. There is only one way to find out if this is true, but I can see no reason why it should not be.
You have not discouraged me at all, I asked for your advise and you have given me this within the bounds of your knowledge. I could ask for nothing more. Thanks
I made more enquiries. The mount is not quick release, but it is not slow release either
. The mount attatches to a scope rail exactly as the rail on the rifle with the IR mount you posted a picture of earlier. I am told the top of the mount sit's close to the top of the reciever and will maintain zero when refited to the sight rail. There is only one way to find out if this is true, but I can see no reason why it should not be.You have not discouraged me at all, I asked for your advise and you have given me this within the bounds of your knowledge. I could ask for nothing more. Thanks
