more gun or more glass?

I would like to mention a few words about Sako TRG's. These are military grade rifles. They are NOT a competitive target rifle. They are for heavy field use engage relatively large targets. They are not for competition use for engaging relatively small targets. A trued up Remington, with a proper chassis and barrel installed with precision in mind, will outshoot a factory Sako TRG all day.
Please keep this in mind, and purchase the proper rifle for your purpose.

R.
 
While there is some overlap in the scopes you see in the various long range shooting sports, there are definitely some brands that are favored in some disciplines and shunned in others. Bushell Elites are very popular in PRS, but you don't see them in the big F-Class matches. The F-Class shooters put a high value on glass clarity, and don't need a super rugger scope. Just one that will function flawlessly for square range shooting. The PRS shooters, on the other hand put more value on ruggedness, and are willing to sacrifice some glass quality for it. You don't see any Sightrons in the PRS Finale. While they may have great glass, their construction is nowhere near as rugged. They would not stand up to being banged off of walls, car frames and barricades as well as the Bushnell Elite.

Military shooters seem to like the Bushnells as well. From the USASOC Comp at Fort Bragg:

USASOC1_zpslbo0rnal.jpg
 
JayCarver said:
I'd rather have a S&B PMii on a Tikka or Rem700p or 5r then a AI with a bushnell personally.

When you "Step down" from a S&B or TT to a NF ATACR your not sacrificing much for the $1000+ saved so there a great option also.

So my thoughts, get the good glass first, and a decent rifle. Down the road you can upgrade the rifle if you feel the need.
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My thoughts exactly... JP.
 
Rman said:
I would like to mention a few words about Sako TRG's. These are military grade rifles. They are NOT a competitive target rifle. They are for heavy field use engage relatively large targets. They are not for competition use for engaging relatively small targets. A trued up Remington, with a proper chassis and barrel installed with precision in mind, will outshoot a factory Sako TRG all day.
Please keep this in mind, and purchase the proper rifle for your purpose.

R.
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Really? All day? .... ok.

No question a well smithed Remmy can hang with or even out shoot a production line TRG but not with the regularity you are suggesting. Maybe I have an exceptional TRG or have owned under achieving customs but I would put my TRG-22 against anyones R700 based custom (in .308win) on any day, "all day".

Anyone who has spent a lot of time behind a TRG will attest to the uncanny capability of this system. Are they the last word in precision rifles... No. But considering their capability straight out of a box they're damn impressive rifles.
 
I have a really great 700 smithed by people who I think are the best and it shoots amazing but I would agree with Marcoman. A custom 700 is like a tuned civic, it will run great, maybe even go super fast but it won't be a Ferrari. A custom is an assembly of various parts that are put together while a TRG/AI is designed as a complete system from the start.
 
kombayotch said:
While there is some overlap in the scopes you see in the various long range shooting sports, there are definitely some brands that are favored in some disciplines and shunned in others. Bushell Elites are very popular in PRS, but you don't see them in the big F-Class matches. The F-Class shooters put a high value on glass clarity, and don't need a super rugge{d} scope. Just one that will function flawlessly for square range shooting. The PRS shooters, on the other hand put more value on ruggedness, and are willing to sacrifice some glass quality for it. You don't see any Sightrons in the PRS Finale. While they may have great glass, their construction is nowhere near as rugged. They would not stand up to being banged off of walls, car frames and barricades as well as the Bushnell Elite.

Military shooters seem to like the Bushnells as well. From the USASOC Comp at Fort Bragg:

USASOC1_zpslbo0rnal.jpg
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it's always a world of compromise but given the price point asked, why not put in better lenses?

Be interesting if Sightron decides to get into the PRS market. Their FFP scope still favors the target shooter... but man, nice glass and mechanicals.

Whatever happen to Leupold?

Jerry

PS, my personal SIII10-50X60 has survived close to 10,000 rds of heavy bullet 308 shooting over the last 2.5yrs. Still tracks great and optics are as good as day one. Maybe not for kicking in doors but for the "square range", they will handle more shooting then the average shooter will use in a lifetime.
 
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Rman said:
I would like to mention a few words about Sako TRG's. These are military grade rifles. They are NOT a competitive target rifle. They are for heavy field use engage relatively large targets. They are not for competition use for engaging relatively small targets. A trued up Remington, with a proper chassis and barrel installed with precision in mind, will outshoot a factory Sako TRG all day.
Please keep this in mind, and purchase the proper rifle for your purpose.

R.
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That's funny the TRG's that I have shot or observed others shoot were all tack drivers.
 
Mystic Precision said:
Be interesting if Sightron decides to get into the PRS market. Their FFP scope still favors the target shooter... but man, nice glass and mechanicals.

Whatever happen to Leupold?

Jerry
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If Sightron wants to get into PRS, they need to do what Bushnell did and get someone like George Gardiner on board as a consultant.

Leupold's Mark 6 has a following. Some are using the FFP Mark 4s with the M5A2 turrets.
 
kombayotch said:
While there is some overlap in the scopes you see in the various long range shooting sports, there are definitely some brands that are favored in some disciplines and shunned in others. Bushell Elites are very popular in PRS, but you don't see them in the big F-Class matches. The F-Class shooters put a high value on glass clarity, and don't need a super rugger scope. Just one that will function flawlessly for square range shooting. The PRS shooters, on the other hand put more value on ruggedness, and are willing to sacrifice some glass quality for it. You don't see any Sightrons in the PRS Finale. While they may have great glass, their construction is nowhere near as rugged. They would not stand up to being banged off of walls, car frames and barricades as well as the Bushnell Elite.

Military shooters seem to like the Bushnells as well. From the USASOC Comp at Fort Bragg:

USASOC1_zpslbo0rnal.jpg
Click to expand...

Perhaps not as good as the elite, I don't know. But I've beat the living heck out of my Sightron in the bush, not to mention about 3,000 rounds of target shooting on a .300WSM, and still tracks perfectly. All things considered the finish is holding up fairly well too.
 
Being tolerant of recoil is NOT an indicator of overall robustness. Many scope that will handle the recoil impulse of a 50 BMG just fine will be destroyed if you put them on an airgun. The airgun's impulse is not in the direction they were meant to handle. Similarly, a scope that can handle the recoil impulse of a big magnum may not handle shocks from other directions very well.
 
supernova said:
I can't agree with the comment stating you will wear out a .308 barrel before you recoup your investment in reloading gear. That is only true if you blow thousands of dollars on reloading equipment which is far from necessary. You can get setup to reload ammo far better than any factory match load for under $100 if you want to. I haven't bought a box of .308 in a few years but the last I bought was Remington match 168 @ $42/20 rds. I hear most good .308 factory ammo is $50+/20 nowadays. Loading an inexpensive match bullet with your favorite powder and a match primer costs so much less than factory ammo and shoots far better. With a 168 Hornady HPBT, 41.5 grs IMR4895 and a Fed210 primer I'm at 63 cents/round. That's $12.50 for 20 rounds of match grade ammo. I think MFS and Barnaul cheap ammo costs more than that. Reloading is absolutely worth it. No question about it. Now for the main question. Scope and mounts need to be solid. Don't waste money on something cheap that you'll outgrow. Buy quality rings and a quality base. Consider the factory stock. Is it worth bedding? Or is it best swapped for something better? Cheap tupperware stocks are the bane of factory offerings. And a quality trigger is another thing to consider. It will make an immediate and dramatic improvement once you're at the stage where you're starting to see good groups but keep causing flyers that ruin a good group. Pulling 5+ lbs is not ideal. 2.5 is a good start but once you start getting the fundamentals down, a cheap sloppy trigger will start robbing your focus and you'll see it as a hindrance. But before spending money, put in some range time. Get behind the rifle and do your best until you can tell for yourself what needs improvement and what isn't bothering you.
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Yah, that's ridiculous, unless they're thinking you're going to be shooting Norinco surplus through your .308 target rifle...

For argument sake, let's say you will wear out a .308 barrel in 3000 rounds, and reloading gives you $40/box match ammo for $20/box. Even with these extraordinarily conservative numbers, you're $3000 up from reloading rather than buying factory ammo. $3000 buys you several new barrels and a REALLY nice reloading kit.
 
VanIsleSteve said:
Thanks so much to all who has input. Very well thought out responses and potentially one of my favorite threads here!
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Agreed! Thanks again to everyone. I'm still not totally clear on what I will buy just yet, but at least I know a whole lot more that I did a few days ago!

The one thing that I am set on is that there is no such thing as "too much scope". A great scope is more than just the quality of its glass. A high quality scope will have good to great glass, excellent durability and repeatability (I think this is ten same as t eh "tracking" that some of you are referring to?), highly functional turrets with the features that suit the shooter and finally a decent reticle that also fits with the shooter's style/game. There is actually more to picking a scope than there is in picking a rifle! I can upgrade/customize a rifle, but if you don't pick the right scope all you can do is sell it for a loss and start over.

Also, thanks rl4930 for suggesting that I start off with a .223. I hadn't thought of that option but it is growing on me. A nicely set up little varmint sniping rig may be a great first precision gun. Practicing on gophers and coyotes at longer ranges, in addition to punching paper, may be a great way to hone long range skills; and save the .308 (or whatever longer range caliber I end up choosing) for a year or two down the road.
 
Not that is matters at the end of the day but does anyone find sightron scopes ugly? I mean, all scopes are bumpy and knobby bit something about them I find unattractive.
 
marcoman said:
Really? All day? .... ok.

No question a well smithed Remmy can hang with or even out shoot a production line TRG but not with the regularity you are suggesting. Maybe I have an exceptional TRG or have owned under achieving customs but I would put my TRG-22 against anyones R700 based custom (in .308win) on any day, "all day".

Anyone who has spent a lot of time behind a TRG will attest to the uncanny capability of this system. Are they the last word in precision rifles... No. But considering their capability straight out of a box they're damn impressive rifles.
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If it can't "hang" with, or out shoot a production line TRG, then I suggest you speak to your smith about what he is doing to your Rem 700 action. I currently own two TRG's. They are great rifles.
A TRG would not outshoot any of the R700 customs I know. You would loose. All day.
If they were as great as you think, then they would be used in target competions. They are not, and if they are, they aren't winning.
I never said they were junk, I never said that they don't do well at what they they are designed for. They do.
I did say that they are not a competion grade target rifle, because they aren't. To buy one for that purpose would not be a great decision.

R.
 
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krausb said:
Agreed! Thanks again to everyone. I'm still not totally clear on what I will buy just yet, but at least I know a whole lot more that I did a few days ago!

The one thing that I am set on is that there is no such thing as "too much scope". A great scope is more than just the quality of its glass. A high quality scope will have good to great glass, excellent durability and repeatability (I think this is ten same as t eh "tracking" that some of you are referring to?), highly functional turrets with the features that suit the shooter and finally a decent reticle that also fits with the shooter's style/game. There is actually more to picking a scope than there is in picking a rifle! I can upgrade/customize a rifle, but if you don't pick the right scope all you can do is sell it for a loss and start over.

Also, thanks rl4930 for suggesting that I start off with a .223. I hadn't thought of that option but it is growing on me. A nicely set up little varmint sniping rig may be a great first precision gun. Practicing on gophers and coyotes at longer ranges, in addition to punching paper, may be a great way to hone long range skills; and save the .308 (or whatever longer range caliber I end up choosing) for a year or two down the road.
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Just 'cause you don't have quite enough to think about yet, if you are now considering calibers other than .308, take a look at .260/6.5mm. There are a number of options (.260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x47 Lapua, etc) that offer very accurate options at a lower cost and lower recoil than .308.

I have a .260 Remington and I love it.
 
Rman said:
Again, define tack driver...They simply are not a competitive grade target rifle.

R.
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Competitive for what? How accurate do you consider competitive and for what discipline?

They are a 0.5 moa or better rifle same as the AI's and that is from a bipod. I have used TRG's and own its British counterpart (AI) and it shoots in the .300-.400 range consistently with handloads (5 rounds), the Sako is no different with a developed handload. Both have been around for decades and their accuracy is well known so I don't know where you are coming from with your statements.

They were never intended for F-class but they are certainly competitive for PR matches. The AI has even been used to set 600 yard benchrest records (Darrel Evans UK).
 
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