more P-14 range time

303carbine

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My son and me took the Winchester P-14 out for another range trip and brought along some handloads. We shot 150 grain Hornady's launched with 48 grains of H4895, it made for an exciting afternoon of blasting rocks in the big gravel pit.
I tried the flip up sights at 200+ yards and shot to point of aim on rocks across the pit. These loads show no sign of pressure and definitely have more speed than the standard 303 loads I use in my Aussie .303:eek:
 
8g over Hodgdon's listed max for H4895 in the .303.....
Why would you overload that much just to shoot rocks?
 
It's a strong action, but it's still a 90 year old rifle built to military tolerences. The brass is also designed around certain operating pressures. But hey, it's your rifle and your face behind it.....
 
I agree that you can load the P-14 to higher pressures than a standard .303. However, there is a limit. I think a good rule of thumb is to use .308 reloading data for .303 load in a P-14. The case capacities of the .303 and the .308 are virtually identical. As Hitzy pointed out, however, the .303 brass is often not made to be able to take huge pressures.

In no event would I exceed .308 load data, and the load you mentioned is definitely hot, even for the .308.
 
303carbine said:
Question for the gunnutz out there, "why is it safe to to use a P-14 action to make a large magnum with heavy powder charges and not safe to load up a 303???
Good question, and there is a good answer. It is called safe operating pressure. I use 140 grains of IMR7828 in the Modified P !$ for the Gibbs. But that is at an operating pressure of about 45,000 psi. So it is safe.
 
Why, because increasing case capacity reduces pressure with equal propellant charges. A big magnum does not run at higher pressure, it uses more gas volume at the same pressure. when a bicycle inner tube filled to 30 psi breaks, it goes "pop"; when your half ton truck tire breaks when filled to the same pressure as the smaller tire it goes BOOM. Same pressure, more of it. 48 grns of 4895 in a 303 case is probably over 65 000 psi. I use 46.5 grains in my '06 M1 loads. Do what you like, but don't let your son shoot those loads. Not trying to be a prick, but read a loading manual. All of these concepts are explained in the Lee manual. Its only 20 bucks.
 
I wouldn't worry too much about that load in say a new manufatured Remington 700, but these rifles are 90 years old with generous chambers and questionable heat treating by todays standards. They are strong, but not indestructible......:)
 
303carbine said:
Question for the gunnutz out there, "why is it safe to to use a P-14 action to make a large magnum with heavy powder charges and not safe to load up a 303???

i've wondered the same thing as the P14 was often used for 300 win mag, 7mm RM etc. these are not high volume/low pressure loads.

i would back off though as you say you are going to do. no need to burn lots of powder to punch paper and hunt tin cans.
 
P14's and P17's had 3 manufacturers; Remington, Winchester and Eddystone. The Remington and the Winchester are very strong actions with excellent steel and heat treatment. That can not be said of the Eddystone, yet there have been many rifles built and shot using the Eddystone action and excessively loaded shells, seemingly without many problems.

Personally I wouldn't do anything with an Eddystone but the Remington and Winchester will safely handle very hot loads. The only problem will arise when a load is so excessive you would experience a catastophic case failure. I don't know when that occurs with correctly headspaced reloads but it won't be a fault of the rifle giving way... it will be brass failure.

I would expect if one were to load gradually increasing hotter loads you will experience hard extraction before you would get case failure. Primer pockets that become loose would occur shortly after that. Any hint of harder extraction is an indicator that you may have reached a maximum load.

Maximum loads vary from rifle to rifle, what books list may or may not be the maximum for your rifle. Those listings are simply what has been estimated by computing or in some cases what was actually tested in a rifle.

.
 
I think everyone will acknowledge here that the P-14 is built like a bank vault. It is considered one of the strongest military actions ever -- never mind the fact that it was built in 1914. This action has been used for the biggest magnum cartridges, including all of the Weatherbys, and those rounds deliver very serious back thrust.

The point that's being made here is that 48 grains of 4895 would even be questionable in a Remington 700 or an RPA Quadlock.

If you really want to hotrod the original .303 in a P-14 without going the ".303 Improved" route, I'd try a powder like Vihtavuori N550 or even Reloder 15. I wouldn't be surprised if the Vihtavuori powder gave you a solid 2,900 fps with a 150-grain bullet with relatively moderate pressures (ie well under 52,00 c.u.p., the pressure ceiling for the .308).

Personally, I like IMR 4320 in the .303, and 46 to 47 grains gives great results in a P-14 with a 150-grain Hornady. This load is not super-hot, though. It generates about 2,750 fps.
 
When Epps first started making the .303 Epps he found that only the P-14's would withstand the hottest loads, the # 1's and #4's could not come close. The actions stretched too much.

All loading data published for the .303 British is data safely handled in Lee Enfields.

I don't know of data published specifically for the .303 British in a P-14 ...

... it could well be that 48 grains of 4895 is acceptable data for a P-14. There is no doubt it is excessive for Lee Enfields.

If this load is considered unsafe in a P-14, why are the extraction and pressure signs absent?
 
guntech - IMHO, that load, if anything, will highlight the brass as the weak link. I don't care how strong the action is, if you get catastrophic brass failure you open yourself up to problems.

Custom gun builders like Ed Lapour developped special Mauser-98 style gas deflecting cocking piece shrouds just to addrress this gas handling shortcoming of the P14 design ;)
 
Claven2 said:
guntech - IMHO, that load, if anything, will highlight the brass as the weak link. I don't care how strong the action is, if you get catastrophic brass failure you open yourself up to problems.

Custom gun builders like Ed Lapour developped special Mauser-98 style gas deflecting cocking piece shrouds just to addrress this gas handling shortcoming of the P14 design ;)

Brass is the weak link in every rifle. The brass is simply a high pressure gasket. When it fails you hope the design of the rifle is sound. In some rifle the brass is superbly supported (Remington 700) and this results in much higher pressures being able to be loaded. Other actions are weaker and stretch (Lee Enfields) and do not support the higher pressures.

A maximum load in one rifle is not always a maximum in another rifle. There is no doubt in my mind the load being discussed is way too hot for any Lee Enfield and may be too hot for some other bolt actions too... but when it is fired in the owners rifle and shows no excessive pressure signs, is it safe in his rifle? I would say yes. Would I suggest anyone else simply use the same load and try it? NO. But if you wanted to work up a 1/2 grain at a time from a reloading book listing until you got pressure signs, I would say that is correct.

Again - if in that rifle he is not experiencing pressure signs and the extraction is not hard, he has not reached an overload level I am familiar with. When I have a hot load that is more than maximum for the rilfe it was fired in, first I get hard extraction... and possibly loosened primer pockets... this all occurs before the pressure levels of a catastrophic case failure...

Anyone got a stretchy old Lee Enfield they want to blow up? ... that load might do it ...
 
The simple reality that's been established time and time again through testing and published articles is that conventional signs of high pressure, such as extraction, primers, etc. are, at best, unreliable indicators of true pressure. Many, many times you will encounter a load that grossly exceeds 52,000 c.u.p. but does not show any conventional signs associated with high pressure. Such loads may be "safe" in the sense that they don't blow the rifle up; most actions are built with a huge margin of safety. But the point that's been made is that it is not prudent to push your luck, especially with older actions.

The 4895 load described above almost certainly reaches or exceeds 52,000 c.u.p. (The Hodgdon Reloading Guide indicates that 45.5 grains of H4895 with a 150-grain bullet in a .308 Win. generates 51,000 c.u.p. The IMR Guide lists a maximum .308 load with the same bullet as 47.3 grains of IMR 4895 with a pressure of 57,700 psi) The only way to know for sure would be to use pressure-testing equipment on that barrel and load. However, we can infer that it exceeds that pressure because of the .308 data. The .303 has virtually the same case capacity and an almost identical bore diameter. Therefore, as a rule of thumb, it is prudent to use .308 loading data, generated through extensive pressure testing with a ceiling of 52,000 c.u.p., as the absolute maximum for .303 loads in the P-14. This is not to say that .308 loads will necessarily be safe; only that in no event should you go higher than published .308 loads, regardless of what the conventional pressure signs may suggest.

The issue about the brass is worth repeating. Because .303s are not normally loaded to the same pressures as modern cartridges like the .308, some manufacturers don't build the cases as strongly as they do the more modern rounds. Sometimes this takes the form of thinner case walls. Therefore, some loads that are fine in a .308 may appear to be too much for a .303 in a P-14. Once again, it pays to work up from below.

The upshot of all of this is that the load being described, in reality, will probably not give any serious safety issues. It will, however, be seriously pushing the redline. Personally, I don't see the need to push the redline. As I've said above, if you want SERIOUS velocity, all you need to do is try a powder like N550, and you should be able to reach near-.30-06 levels out of an ordinary .303 case, within SAAMI .308 pressure levels.
 
p-14

I talked to the techs at Federal and Hornady, they both say that the 303 brass is no thinner than 308 or 30-06.
The guy at Federal said they have a "fudge factor" built into the brass so that there is a margin for safety. That's quite the technical term I thought as I was talking to him, but it was the best way he could convey about the brass integrity.He said this was done so that the brass is not excessively thin, this only invites lawsuits. His words , not mine.
I guess the same argument can be made about my 7x57 Mauser that I should stay with the book loads of 35 grains of IMR 4895 so that I don't blow up my Remington 700 action.
 
If you want to go faster why not just buy another caliber rifle? The .303 Brit is a great round within a certain range. Last time I looked I can buy virtually any rifle combo built but replacing fingers and eyes is a tad more difficult.

Leaving the load listed on this thread makes no sense to me. There will always be some idiot who will try to duplicate the load. You can't stop dumb people from hurting themselves but you don't have to play a part in their actions either. Overloads ought to be deleted IMHO.

Take Care

Bob
 
303carbine said:
I talked to the techs at Federal and Hornady, they both say that the 303 brass is no thinner than 308 or 30-06.
The guy at Federal said they have a "fudge factor" built into the brass so that there is a margin for safety. That's quite the technical term I thought as I was talking to him, but it was the best way he could convey about the brass integrity.He said this was done so that the brass is not excessively thin, this only invites lawsuits. His words , not mine.
I guess the same argument can be made about my 7x57 Mauser that I should stay with the book loads of 35 grains of IMR 4895 so that I don't blow up my Remington 700 action.
What did they say when you told them you load their brass 20% hotter then published max load?
 
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