Mosin accuracy with 147gr Russian Surplus

mhowarth

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Hi CGN'ers

As the title suggests, I'm curious what type of shot groupings I can expect from 147gr Russian surplus ammo.

I've got a crate of the stuff and haven't been out to try it yet. I've got a 91/30 with just the irons, an SVT-40 with just the irons, and I'm in the process of scoping another 91/30.

As always thanks for the input.
 
With the Russian surplus I get about 2 inch groups at 50 yards, with the Czech surplus I get about 2 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards, using a 91/30

The SVT40 I get about just a little bit tighter at 50 yards, and about 4 inches at 100 yards.

No scopes on either.
 
Russian Surplus ammo

If you can get three inch groups or less at 100 yards with the average Russian surplus ammo, using open sights, then you are doing all right.

One important thing is to remember that a lot of this stuff is corrosive. That means clean the bore after firing. The standard with the Lee Enfield was to pour two pints of boiling water down the bore to neutralize and wash away the salts, then clean the bore.

Boiling or very hot water tends to heat up the barrel and get the residue in the minute pores of the steel. It also helps dry the barrel a bit.

There was even a funnel with a tube attached to help you do this. It is very easy to solder a short copper tube to the end of a metal funnel and bend it into a shallow S shape to fit inside the chamber of the rifle.

.
 
I'm no stranger to corrosive primers.

I've got a few sks's and a few crates of Czech surplus. I've been reading that a good solution to cleaning after firing this surpluss stuff is to use window cleaner with ammonia. The ammonia is supposed to be very effective in neutralizing those nasty corrosives.

I've been using this method for the past year or so in my sks and i have yet to get any rust AT ALL. Mind you i like to leave a nice light coating of oil over everything when I'm done cleaning.

...But we digress...

So 3-4 inch groups at 100 is pretty standard is it? Funny because this is roughly the groupings of the 7.62x39 through my sks.
 
I'm no stranger to corrosive primers.

I've got a few sks's and a few crates of Czech surplus. I've been reading that a good solution to cleaning after firing this surpluss stuff is to use window cleaner with ammonia. The ammonia is supposed to be very effective in neutralizing those nasty corrosives.

I've been using this method for the past year or so in my sks and i have yet to get any rust AT ALL. Mind you i like to leave a nice light coating of oil over everything when I'm done cleaning.

...But we digress...

So 3-4 inch groups at 100 is pretty standard is it? Funny because this is roughly the groupings of the 7.62x39 through my sks.
Ammonia have cleaning property but has nothing to do against the corrosive salt, the reason with windex work its because is mainly composed of water, water is a proven way to disolve and flush salt.
 
So 3-4 inch groups at 100 is pretty standard is it? Funny because this is roughly the groupings of the 7.62x39 through my sks.


Not sure why people are bringing up the "corrosive" discussion, its not the topic here and no one is asking...



Your SKS is shooting better than average and is perhaps not the best comparison ( this is where some idiot chimes in and says his SKS gets 1 inch groups at 200 yards) Most SKS are lucky to get 5 or 6 inch groups at 100 yards.


Yes, IMO 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards with open sights is pretty good with a 91/30, perhaps a bit tighter with a SVT40. They tend to shoot better, but all this depends on your eyesight. I generally like to test fire and measure my open sight groups at 50 yards to lesson the eye correction variable. My MOA at 50 yards is always better than 100, but after measuring, I prefer to shoot 100 yards.
 
Your SKS is shooting better than average and is perhaps not the best comparison ( this is where some idiot chimes in and says his SKS gets 1 inch groups at 200 yards) Most SKS are lucky to get 5 or 6 inch groups at 100 yards.

My sks get 1/4' groups at 200 as long as I fire only one shot.:p
 
Save the surplus for the SVT and use reloads with the 91/30, you will get much better results that way.
 
I actually plan on throwing a 7x scope on the mosin, so I'm hoping to get at least 3inch groups. I'll be happy with that!

Thanks for the input though everyone.

I would love to use handloads but i dont have the knowledge / time / inclination, and as i mentioned i have a crate of the surplus.

I don't want to drive tacks, but 3 inches at 100 with the scope sounds pretty damn good to me for a $300 build.
 
I ring a 12" gong at 300 off a rest with the Czech S&B with any M91. I was getting 1 1/2"@100 with a scoped SVT40 factory sniper; just a major PITA to clean after a shoot:p
 
Save the surplus for the SVT and use reloads with the 91/30, you will get much better results that way.

Along the same lines, do NOT fire anything heavier than 150 grains out of the SVT-40. It was not designed for heavy ball ammunition. You will destroy your gun in a short period. It's also not recommended to fire anything heavier than that out of a Mosin as you will eventually warp the bolt lugs and cause the dreaded sticky bolt syndrome.
 
Along the same lines, do NOT fire anything heavier than 150 grains out of the SVT-40. It was not designed for heavy ball ammunition. You will destroy your gun in a short period. It's also not recommended to fire anything heavier than that out of a Mosin as you will eventually warp the bolt lugs and cause the dreaded sticky bolt syndrome.

So if i had a bunch of Hungarian 182grs, what do I shoot them out of?? and what did they use it in?
 
So if i had a bunch of Hungarian 182grs, what do I shoot them out of?? and what did they use it in?
Re-edited, I found some sources from some other gun forums I post on.

One guy, a dealer, posted this:
Mosins will fire 180g ammo but they weren't built for it. 149g ammo is the right weight for a Mosin-Nagant....plain and simple. 180g stuff was made for machineguns...PK, DP, s**t like that. Stop putting the wrong ammo type in your bolt action and expecting it to work perfectly. This is also about half the reason the Mosin has such a poor reputation for accuracy...MG ammo was not made to be accurate; in fact many claim it was meant to dispurse some.
I still have yet to have a single 'sticky' bolt in any of my Mosins..but i fire light ball and i disassemble teh bolt and hose out the barrel/chamber when i get one (ok not all of them but the ones i plan to be shooting).

Another, citing Terence W. Lapin, apparently the author of some kind of Mosin bible, says this:

A heavier round, weighing in at 182gr and having a boat tailed bullet to increase flight stability, was also introduced in 1930. Rather than being called "T" for tyazhelaya ("heavy"), as one would expect, it was styled "D", for dal'noboinaya ("long-range"); the reason for this inconsistency of nomenclature goes unremarked and unexplained in the sources (Shipp, "Red Army Infantry Weapons, Tanks, and Armored Cars", based on an intelligence study prepared for the Estonian General Staff and presented in 1933)

Virtually all Finnish Mosin-Nagants will have a capital "D" stamped on their chambers (generally on the buttstock as well) to indicate that they have been chambered for the Finnish D166 cartridge, which was developed to take advantage of the huge amount of captured Soviet "D" ammunition.

As the Estonian intelligence study which was the primary source noted, the "D" round was preferable for use at ranges exceeding 1000 meters because, even though it had a lesser muzzle velocity, due to its shape and greater cross-section load it maintained its velocity longer and "produces casualties even at the maximum range (1500 meters) when its final velocity is 140m/s (the bullet can still penetrate a man at velocity 116m/s).")

...

With military equipment of every sort from long underwear to weapons-grade plutonium hemmorrhaging from the former East Bloc, we should not be surprised to find ammunition for the 7.62mm ShKAS (Shpitalniy-Komaritskii Rapid-Fire Aviation Machine-gun) surfacing now and then. While it can be fired in Mosin-Nagant rifles and carbines, it is not wise to do so as it can cause damage, principally to the interrupter-ejector. These rounds are easily identified by the red-enameled foil covering the primer on the bottom of the cartridge case and the Cyrillic letter Ш next to it.

...

(table)
Bullet, red tip, type Ranging-Incendiary (PZ) (may be erroneously called ZP on occasion), 142gr

Warning: The PZ round was designed for use in machineguns: attempting to fire it from rifles or carbines is exceedingly dangerous and should be strictly avoided. This round is unstable, having a striker device and an explosive vial or capsule in the bullet's center; it as been known to explode at highly inconvenient times for the shooter.

The poster added this to say:

In short, there's no real issue with heavy grain in a Mosin. Just don't fire off the Messerschmidt-f**ker rounds or explosive ones in it and you should be fine. However, if you want to treat your 60-year old rifle nicely and keep it around for a long while use light ball. Or if you're a victim of sticky bolt syndrome with the heavy stuff you should use the lighter ammo. In my ill-spent youth I blew through a case of the 174gr stuff in my M44 because I didn't know any better, and while I had no failures of any kind, I switched entirely over to the 147gr stuff.

Obviously, I would be slightly wary of firing heavy ball in any rifle made before the development of the round in 1930 that wasn't rearsenaled and perhaps rechambered. I'm not hip on chamber design and ogive and all that stuff, so another can prove me wrong, but without further data I would avoid it.

The big red flag of caution goes up with semi-automatics like the SVT-40 and the PSL. Always use light ball with semi-automatics. Otherwise you'll deform and damage the action, and there's not a lot of SVT-40s running around for you to be flippant with.

So according to 7.62x54r.net, http://www.7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo006.htm, your Hungarian stuff is about the same FPS as the light ball stuff, which is what the rifle was meant to fire. So I think you're good to go.
 
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I actually plan on throwing a 7x scope on the mosin, so I'm hoping to get at least 3inch groups. I'll be happy with that!

Thanks for the input though everyone.

I would love to use handloads but i dont have the knowledge / time / inclination, and as i mentioned i have a crate of the surplus.

I don't want to drive tacks, but 3 inches at 100 with the scope sounds pretty damn good to me for a $300 build.

A scope doesn't make a rifle more accurate.

There are a bunch of accurization tips over on the surplusrifle.com forums, I'd suggest you head over there, read, study, and give it a shot.
 
Along the same lines, do NOT fire anything heavier than 150 grains out of the SVT-40. It was not designed for heavy ball ammunition. You will destroy your gun in a short period. It's also not recommended to fire anything heavier than that out of a Mosin as you will eventually warp the bolt lugs and cause the dreaded sticky bolt syndrome.
I would be surprised if shooting heavy ball with a mosin would warp the bolt. As for the SVT, there,s a gas regulator on and for a good reason, the capability to handle differents ammos. Sure, misadjusted gas regulator could lead to rifle failure but properly adjusted, the tokarev should handle it.
 
A scope doesn't make a rifle more accurate.

There are a bunch of accurization tips over on the surplusrifle.com forums, I'd suggest you head over there, read, study, and give it a shot.

I'm not suggesting a scope would make the rifle more accurate, but it would surely make ME more accurate.

Hell if that were the case I would throw the biggest damn scope I can find on my 22 and blast away at 1000 meters.:p
 
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