Mosin Nagant - Modern Counterboring?

[Drachenblut]

I am glad to see such vehmenant responses from all sides. Believe me, I am a Milsurp collector, and would never alter a firearm , and have no plans to do so. However, that being said, the question was broached in order to get some ideas flowing from all sides of the table. Very interesting views, and fugawi has great points, and I am in full agreement. I once thought of a saying: "The Mosin is a peasant's tool, to be used and abused. However, it is a war relic now, and change the ammo to fit the gun, not the gun, to fit the ammo."

 

[fiddler]

There is a very large difference between a Babba-tized rifle and some maintainability to make your historic rifle operate as it was first made. A bit of metal shaved off the muzzle to make it shoot properly is no more removing value from the rifle, as it would remove value from a classic model of car to machine the brake in order to make it drive-able and safe. These rifles are inexpensive, if you want to collect one, then get one to collect. If you want to shoot one, make it shootable.


A piece of history that does not function properly is less valuable than the millions of rifles out there that do operate as made. The collector value of a standard Mosin 91/30 will be small for generations to come. You are fooling yourself if you think that this rifle will lose value for correcting the crown. Many of the armory rebuilds already have this done when you open the crate, long before it ever landed in Canada, does that work affect it value then?

 

[louthepou]

Why do we want to preserve history? So that future generations may learn from previous generations' experience. So that the collective wisdom may grow. So that year from now, kids with no direct contact with the topic may have an alternate way of being in contact with it.

I never fought in the French trenches in WW1. Did you? Well, shooting a SMLE at a 200 yards target, and appreciate how much skill Those Who Fought To Preserve My Fredom needed to hit their teutonic target, I would dare to hypothesise, helps me better grasp how much of their soul they so generously gave away so that mine may be saved. If I wouldn't have the chance to shoot with a half-decent SMLE, some of that new-found wisdom may be beyond my reach.

I would say that the same applies to my Mosin-Nagant rifles. I did not spend my spare time on the Western Front fighting "for" Staline in 1942. Therefore, I'm quite happy to be able to test my shooting skills with a half-decent 91/30 on a gong, this being my own way of paying tribute to those who fell near Kursk or Smolensk or Bryansk so many years ago...

And, the more I read about WW1 and WW2, the more I wonder if I will eventually think more or less the same way about Mausers and Arisakas. Food for thought...

That, of course, is my humble opinion.

Lou

 

[Nabs]

To add an addition to Lou, I am of the same thought in preserving my rifles in their original condition as best as possible so that I may pass them along to the next generation of collectors once my care-taking time is finished. I consider it a privilege to own such pieces of history and I do my best to respect them.

Many of Mausers from WW1 have crowns and bores that are less than desirable, one in particular looks like she was sitting in a mud puddle for 50 or more years nose first. I, however, have not re-crowned or counter bored any of them. I know I won't be getting holes on top of holes on a paper target 100, 200, or 300 meters away but I realize these rifles weren't designed to be that accurate. If I wanted a super ridiculously accurate rifle, I would buy a Remington 700.

I do my utmost to operate, maintain, and shoot these rifles the same way as they would have been a century before, instead my target is a piece of paper instead of a man.

 

[fugawi]

By all means if you want to take your run of the mill, inexpensive M91 and counter bore it or recrown it or whatever to make it a better shooter - it's your rifle and your money but as been pointed you can buy another and sell the one you have. Or not. Certainly at this time there are a lot of non collectible (or less collectible/desirable) inexpensive M91s around. But that might not be the case. Many here on the Milsurps forum curse bubba altering that WW2 K98 mauser from military configuration to sportser (and there were approximately 14 million K98 made). Drachenblut himself knows the trials and tribulations of restoring a Swede m/94.

Counter boring a non counter bored rifle permanently alters that rifle from what it was. It can't be taken back. It will never again be the milsurp it once was. And again with non collectible rifles fine, but at one time most if not all milsurps were non collectible - that's why they got bubba'd. They become collectible once we want to collect them and can't find them. And usually the closer to original or as issued the more value they have as a collectible.

 

[Nabs]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I would love to have been collecting back in the 20-30 years ago when the Gewehr 88s were being imported from Turkey...I would have bought them by the crate load for super Turkish discount .

 

[fiddler]

Counter boring a non counter bored rifle permanently alters that rifle from what it was. It can't be taken back. It will never again be the milsurp it once was. And again with non collectible rifles fine, but at one time most if not all milsurps were non collectible - that's why they got bubba'd. They become collectible once we want to collect them and can't find them. And usually the closer to original or as issued the more value they have as a collectible.

This is all very romantic and noble and what not, but how does the value of a rifle re-crowned from the factory compare to a rifle thats re-crowned here? Unless the crown is fresh, how does one know when it was machined? Its not like it has a date on it. Further to this, I looked at a dozen Mosin rifles last week, half of them were re-crowned before they arrived.


I think what you mean to imply, is that YOU value a rifle the way it was found and YOU prefer to not alter it in any way shape or form. Some folks would feel that removing rust or dirt would be an alteration of the way it came, however I personally do not subscribe to this. I can appreciate the fact that some people desire museum pieces, but others have to appreciate that WE value these historical rifles by operating them in the same manner and precision that they were designed to be operated. To us, this is the history and the only value in it. A rifle that doesn't work is only good for parts.


So here we are, I would pay more for a rifle that operates as intended, you would pay more for one that does not operate well or at all, but is left original, which consequently has no value at all to myself. All my rifles are completely safe and serviceable, and when I pass these off to the younger generations, they will still be operating. Maybe you should buy them faster than I do?

 

[Nabs]

I think what you mean to imply, is that YOU value a rifle the way it was found and YOU prefer to not alter it in any way shape or form. Some folks would feel that removing rust or dirt would be an alteration of the way it came, however I personally do not subscribe to this. I can appreciate the fact that some people desire museum pieces, but others have to appreciate that WE value these historical rifles by operating them in the same manner and precision that they were designed to be operated. To us, this is the history and the only value in it. A rifle that doesn't work is only good for parts.

I can't agree more with what was stated here. I can see collecting to be a double edged sword and where the clash of "leave it be" and "functional operation" meet. I consider there to be a fine line between them but you can't have one without giving up on the other.

From my collecting standpoint, I perform basic cleaning and inspection of any and all firearms I collect to the point of restoring complete functionality as they once would have operated. I stop myself there as going any further to "restore" the firearm (i.e. re-bluing, re-finishing the wood...etc) would venture across a line that I do not wish to cross.

In a way, I much prefer getting ahold of the beat up, mis-matched beauties as they always have a more interesting story to tell than unissued examples. A story, mind you, that is not told in words but is described by the nicks and dings on the wood and metal down to the mud inhabiting the deepest corner.

There is nothing quite like bringing a forgotten or written off warrior back into the functional light once again while maintaining what history she brings with her.

 

[louthepou]

Ok, here's a question, to make the waters even muddier.

(Do I like being a devil's advocate...)

Say I have a Lee Enfield No1Mk3*. The gun is totally original, collectable. I check the headspace, and it's a bit too generous. I have a longer bolt head, which makes the headspace just perfect. If I swap the bolt head, is that bad? I mean, I did remove an original part and replaced it with another that came from another rifle...

Lou

 

[mg4201]

Ok, here's a question, to make the waters even muddier.

(Do I like being a devil's advocate...)

Say I have a Lee Enfield No1Mk3*. The gun is totally original, collectable. I check the headspace, and it's a bit too generous. I have a longer bolt head, which makes the headspace just perfect. If I swap the bolt head, is that bad? I mean, I did remove an original part and replaced it with another that came from another rifle...

Lou

For what it's worth, When your milsurp was in service making history if it was damaged it would have been repaired. It was a tool that a soldier had to bet his life on. A military rifle would not have been allowed to remain non functional. But thats my .02 cents

 

[camster]

I suppose what it boils down to is, "Why did you buy the rifle in the first place"?

Honestly...My first (and still one of my favourites) rifle I ever bought was a Ljungman. I didn't buy it to preserve Sweden's history...I actually was young enough, My Dad had to use his FAC. I hadn't even heard of 6.5x55.
It was cheap. I could afford it...at that time, I could even afford ammo! Although I was teased for lugging the Ljungman, I also got my first deer with it.

It was in an era when you could get a .303 (lol, most people didn't know Mk1 from MK4) for 5$'s.

Again, why did you buy it?
I'm on the lookout for a Hakim now...I don't want to lug it through the woods for deer, I think I'd like to be one of the guys with a "set" (Rashid on my list too).

Muddy the waters even more still...I just replaced the extractor on my Ljungman and, had to replace the magazine about a year ago too...

I have a few more guns now...some I can't sell out of a historical obligation that no one else will appreciate, My Grandfather's Win94 and, My Father's Mauser.
...My Father's Mauser. My Dad came to Canada in '57 (From Berlin). Once he became "Canadian" he bought a Mauser (Proud German, He insisted on a VZ24...the best are Czech) and, of course, had it scoped! Now has bent bolt handle, stock inletted to accommodate it and, a scope base covering the marking on receiver ring. Hensoldt Wetzlar scope...Not a great find for a "Mauser aficionado" any more, still has "History" I need to preserve...I know why he bought it. Welcome to Canada, you can own guns affordable here, quite easily. I doubt it had anything to do with "preserving memories" (as you can imagine, most kids in Germany, at that time, don't have fond memories...many will never actually be rid of those memories).

uh, oh...here's the actual "point"...
Why did he purchase the Mauser instead of a .303 (or, any other of the abundant 'surps from that era)? Seems that, those with any "experience" of the history we are all now so keen on sparing were more than happy to turn weapons into 'sportin' goods! Not swords into plowshares but, fightin' swords into Huntin' swords. That was less than 20 years after the war was over....Now, 66 years later....attitudes change.

Muddy the waters even still, I'm guessing, if my Dad (anyone) knew that those very rifles would increase in $ value, would they have bought a dozen.

Why did you buy it? It's your's now!

 

[fugawi]

This is all very romantic and noble and what not, but how does the value of a rifle re-crowned from the factory compare to a rifle thats re-crowned here? Unless the crown is fresh, how does one know when it was machined? Its not like it has a date on it. Further to this, I looked at a dozen Mosin rifles last week, half of them were re-crowned before they arrived.

When you buy an already CB'd M91 you don't know when it was done - in the 30s, 40s, 50s... but if you CB your non CB'd M91 here then you alter it. Whether that affects the value depends upon the buyer and whether the seller discloses that the CBing was done here.

As others have stated - if you don't like the way your rifle shoots there are other steps you can take - swagging the barrel and shooting the correct size bullets, adjusting the sight, cleaning it etc. If it's non collectible buy another.

I think what you mean to imply, is that YOU value a rifle the way it was found and YOU prefer to not alter it in any way shape or form. Some folks would feel that removing rust or dirt would be an alteration of the way it came, however I personally do not subscribe to this. I can appreciate the fact that some people desire museum pieces, but others have to appreciate that WE value these historical rifles by operating them in the same manner and precision that they were designed to be operated. To us, this is the history and the only value in it. A rifle that doesn't work is only good for parts.


So here we are, I would pay more for a rifle that operates as intended, you would pay more for one that does not operate well or at all, but is left original, which consequently has no value at all to myself. All my rifles are completely safe and serviceable, and when I pass these off to the younger generations, they will still be operating. Maybe you should buy them faster than I do?

Fiddler you don't know me so please don't make the presumption that I "would pay more for one that does not operate well or at all" In fact I do value a functioning milsurp more than a non functioning one. But Drachenblut was not talking about making a non functioning milsurp functioning again, he posed his question about re crowning and CBing to improve the accuracy of a milsurp. Which from the outset I stated that I don't see anything wrong with doing so as long as its a non collectible milsurp.

I would only buy a non functioning milsurp if that was the only way I could acquire that milsurp such as the FN C1A1 or a Bren or my own dewat Sten. I try to buy fully functioning milsurps that I can shoot in the best condition that I can find or afford. I do not "improve" upon my milsurps by permanently altering them unless the milsurp in question has no value as a collectible to me. Of course what might be of no value to me as a collectible may be of value to another as a collectible. That was probably the thinking of bubba back when he sportserized the milsurp (pick which one) that we now lament and curse for being done.

I do restore milsurps with parts from another with the goal of restoring that milsurp to its authentic condition at a specific time. If in doing so I make a non functioning milsurp functioning again great. With some milsups that is not be possible, for example a dewat AK47, which are illegal to own in Canada. Still you will find collectors that would buy one. I am restoring a Danish Garand to the condition it was when manufactured by the Springfield Armoury in 1943. It will never be original because I have no way of knowing if the SA bolt I use to replace the Beretta bolt was the one in the Garand in 1943. But it will be authentic. And if for some reason I want to return the Garand to the Danish configuration I can, I have not permanently altered it.

All my rifles are completely safe and serviceable, and when I pass these off to the younger generations, they will still be operating.

When I pass on my rifles they too will be completely safe and serviceable. And still collectible as the authentic milsurp there were when I first acquired them.

Maybe you should buy them faster than I do?

The purchase of any milsups is dependent upon availability, how deep your pockets are and the priority of your finances. I don't know you fiddler. Maybe you started buying milsurps when they were cheap and plentiful, maybe you live where more are available, maybe buying milsurps is a priority in your life, maybe you have deeper pockets than I. What does "Maybe you should buy them faster than I do?" add to the discussion?

Keep in mind hindsight is, as they say, 20/20. You can buy lots of m/94 bayonets. The trick is to find a m/94 carbine to mount it on.

 

[fiddler]

A Ford F-150 will be a very valuable collector vehicle in several generations. I know this, and I have one in perfect running condition. It has no value to me if it does not operate within the specifications of the manufacturer. I'm pretty sure that someone will suggest if I was to machine the breaks on it for proper and safe operation, I will effect its collectors value 100 years down the road. F150s are like 91/30 Mosins, there are millions of them. There is one around every corner and it will be several lifetimes before they are worth anything other than the tool and task it was designed to perform. If it doesn't perform up to spec, then fix it.


If someone believes they are preserving history by keeping a poor shooting 91/30 in the closet, then fine. They should buy more because there are millions left to be had. However, for the majority of us, we're not dumping our life's savings into poor functioning items. We want historical firearms that shoot the way they were designed to perform as they did historically. We don't care about some one's BS that a museum may want it 150 years later.