I have a refurbished 1930 dated, Tula manufactured receiver, ex-dragoon Mosin Nagant rifle. I bought it at a gun show on an impulse because it was in nice condition and the bolt, butt plate and magazine plate all matched the receiver # (not electro stencilled, but stamped numbers). Upon closer inspection afterwards, I noticed that a few parts of the rifle, including the trigger assembly and parts of the bolt very faintly have the Izhevsk symbol (triangle with arrow in centre) instead of the Tula symbol (star with arrow in centre). This leads me to question whether or not the stamped matching numbers on my rifle are genuine. Could someone tell me if they have seen something like this before? When the Russians updated the 1891 Mosin Nagant dragoon rifles to the 91/30 configurations, did they replace some components with parts from different factories? Or is my rifle a modern attempt to fool the collector market? Any input would be most appreciated.
MOSIN NAGANT Question: Genuinely matching numbers?
- Thread starter Teppo87
- Start date
Factory refurbed Mosins etc can be found with recycled parts from any factory either re-stamped or EP'd with a new serial number. A standard Russian practice. Look for evidence of grinding off the old number. New parts like bolts, floor plates & buttplates either with stamped or EP'd serials can also be found fitted to older rifles. Observe the font of the stampings on parts against the main serial as well.
haretrigger
CGN Regular
- Location
- Lower Mainland, BC
The fourth word in your post should help to shed light on this.
Any rifle that's been Russian arsenal refurbished usually had a mismatched conglomeration on parts installed as they were pulled from the bin. I've seen a range of refurbs consisting of no attempt to match, all the way to full stamped match refurbs.
In some cases an electric engraving pencil was used to serial parts to a specific rifle, or as with the more recent imports, attention was paid to match individual parts to the receiver number by stamping, including the Russian Cyrillic characters.
Although I'm not a 100% certain, I would expect that you might be more likely to find different arsenal stampings on rifles that were manufactured during wartime.
Any rifle that's been Russian arsenal refurbished usually had a mismatched conglomeration on parts installed as they were pulled from the bin. I've seen a range of refurbs consisting of no attempt to match, all the way to full stamped match refurbs.
In some cases an electric engraving pencil was used to serial parts to a specific rifle, or as with the more recent imports, attention was paid to match individual parts to the receiver number by stamping, including the Russian Cyrillic characters.
Although I'm not a 100% certain, I would expect that you might be more likely to find different arsenal stampings on rifles that were manufactured during wartime.
I have four 91/30's here..including a 1925 dragoon conversion....all of them have stamped matching numbers. Every single on of them have had original numbers ground off and re-stamped to match the receiver. Looks good, looks almost like they could be original matching....but just a few minutes attention paid and anyone can see they have all been force matched. Fonts don't match...stampings are too proud, wear patterns aren't consistent across the rifle etc.
I doubt there's all that many that are truly matching. Anything that went through refurb is bound to have some mis or force matched parts. You'd be more likely to find a truly matching gun in an older import or a gun that wasn't converted to 91/30 standards.
Also consider the fact that during the refurb new (at the time) parts may have been installed and stamped with the appropriate matching number. Leaving the appearance of a numbers matching rifle, but truthfully not an "original" numbers matching rifle.
A while ago I took a stab at what the refurbishment process might have looked like and what it means based on my observations of my collection. I have worked in mass production for 25 years so I tried to emphasize that a large project of this type would be broken down into simple steps and would involve gauging and inspection to clear standards. Mainly I wanted to emphasize that "refurbished" is a good thing and that the mix master collection of parts was inevitable in the process. I expect that removing the bolt serial number (by grinding) was standardized work - every serial number was removed on receipt and restamped at final assembly. The receiver, floor plate and butt plate are all blued steel so they could have been chemically cleaned using the same method. Wiring (or other method of keeping them together) these parts together during cleaning is an efficiency step because it is less work than re numbering at the assembly process. This is why you have a matching butt plate, floor plate and receiver but the bolt is forced (renumbered) in a pre war rifle with a post/late war stock.
I would be hard to prove conclusively a true bolt match given there are full serial renumbered bolts that can't possibly match (I have a full serial matching Tula bolt with a Remington arsenal stamp). Often there is visible evidence of grinding but it is certain that there was an available supply of unstamped bolts that could have been used in the refurbishment process.
There are true originals out there just like any other collectable. Somewhere Elvis's real costume, worn on stage....etc. exists, it just a question of finding among the many fakes. Some owners are crooks but most believe what they have is the real thing.
I would be hard to prove conclusively a true bolt match given there are full serial renumbered bolts that can't possibly match (I have a full serial matching Tula bolt with a Remington arsenal stamp). Often there is visible evidence of grinding but it is certain that there was an available supply of unstamped bolts that could have been used in the refurbishment process.
There are true originals out there just like any other collectable. Somewhere Elvis's real costume, worn on stage....etc. exists, it just a question of finding among the many fakes. Some owners are crooks but most believe what they have is the real thing.
