Mosin PU Sniper
- Thread starter ajagcapt
- Start date
Probably the supply has dried up for the moment. Cylclical? Tough to say - often milsups/milsup ammo is. If there is a demand - frequently a new cache will be discovered - sometimes for less or sometimes for more than the previous asking price.
There is one Thread in the Red Rifle section that has maybe bumped up the price on the EE, but I picked one up for $550 only a month ago on the EE and it included everything including the molot box. I also know of a dealer that was trying to sell one since September for $600 and took the price down to $550 and it finally sold in early December.
Keep checking the EE, put up a WTB add, and check some of the smaller dealers on the net and used rifle sections.
There is one Thread in the Red Rifle section that has maybe bumped up the price on the EE, but I picked one up for $550 only a month ago on the EE and it included everything including the molot box. I also know of a dealer that was trying to sell one since September for $600 and took the price down to $550 and it finally sold in early December.
Keep checking the EE, put up a WTB add, and check some of the smaller dealers on the net and used rifle sections.
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
Are you looking for one as a collector piece or to shoot it?
Actual verified sniper rifles are getting more rare these days.
Even the ones that are around were usualy refurbed because they were shot/used enough as "sniper rifles" to have them made back into regular service rifles by the Soviets and issued back out as such
You can simply buy a very good condition 91/30 and get it tapped for a scope yourself, recrown the barrel and do an easy trigger job and glass bed it (all in your own basement) and you would still be a fraction of the cost even after buying a repro scope and mount.
Just another angle on the matter if oyu hadn't considered it Sir.
Actual verified sniper rifles are getting more rare these days.
Even the ones that are around were usualy refurbed because they were shot/used enough as "sniper rifles" to have them made back into regular service rifles by the Soviets and issued back out as such
You can simply buy a very good condition 91/30 and get it tapped for a scope yourself, recrown the barrel and do an easy trigger job and glass bed it (all in your own basement) and you would still be a fraction of the cost even after buying a repro scope and mount.
Just another angle on the matter if oyu hadn't considered it Sir.
Forum sponsor WestRifle has some for $550. WestRifle has a pretty good rep around here. I've only bought a few accessories off them, no rifles, but have had good dealings with them for what I bought.
http://westrifle.com/wrstore/index....&search_in_description=1&keyword=sniper+mosin
http://westrifle.com/wrstore/index....&search_in_description=1&keyword=sniper+mosin
Virtually every "PU Sniper" in North America is a repro, to some degree. The Molot ones especially so.
They all went through a refurb process after the war. Genuine PU Snipers are rare as Hens Teeth, and seldom verifiable as such. If they have the Molot electro-penciling, they are very definitely not original. They might be mixamasters of sniper Mosins with forced match numbers, but they aren't "original".
- Location
- Richmond, BC, CANADA
The supply of original Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles seems to be drying up. Dealers in the BC Lower Mainland of Canada don't seem to be able to get them now BUT as was mentioned one can never predict when the supply will dry up or when (or IF) a new supply warehouse will be opened. You can always say "I'll buy a No. 4 Lee-Enfield for $10 next week..." (oh right, that time has come and gone forever). We are still waiting for the next flood of these surplus Lee-Enfields, but we are turning blue from holding our breath. Better to buy when you see something you like. Prices usually keep climbing and the political situation in Russia and Ukraine makes it all very unpredictable.
Only the TULA made examples have the "CH" stamp on top of the barrel above the other markings. CH is an abbreviation for sniper in Russian. The Americans have to deal with the import markings stamped into their rifles and sometimes the English translation of Cyrillic letters in the serial numbers stamped in as well. Rifles brought to Canada from Russia (e.g. those imported in the white boxes from Molot) are as they left Russia.
Unless you find the needle in the haystack of a Mosin 91/30 sniper "brought back" by a veteran from Vietnam etc. the usual best bet in Canada is the Molot imports. They come in a white cardboard box and include some accessories (oil bottle, cleaning tools, but not the sling surprisingly) and a mini-sniper manual in Russian, these best part of which is the certificate in the back saying that THIS rifle serial number ##### left Russia with THIS scope serial number ###### on this date. Then you at least KNOW that it is not a North American put
Izhevsk made snipers have the sniper scope serial number stamped into the left side of the barrel, just above the wood.
On the internet you will see pictures claiming that a C in the serial number refers to sniper but this is wrong. It is strictly coincidence.
Soviet serial numbers jumped all over the place. The two letter prefixes do NOT follow alphabetically. Thus AZ1234 might well be made later than ZA1234 (I made up these numbers).
together. If buying or selling an ex-Molot sniper, PLEASE KEEP THE MANUAL WITH IT! Molot is just the wholesaler, not the maker and this did not mate the scopes and rifles.
Replica PU scopes are VERY light and I believe have a blue tint to the lens. Very functional, just not vintage. The post and cross wire MOVE on the originals but not on the replicas as I understand it.
ROUGH CATEGORIES:
WORST: There are Mosin 91/30 rifles that NEVER were snipers in service and have had original or replica scopes ADDED. Do not expect these to be accurate or to increase a lot in value. They are what many call "CLONES." If someone adds markings to pass it off as real, then they are FAKES.
GOOD: On forums you hear a lot about "ex-snipers" - mainly in the USA. These are rifles that were decommissioned by the Soviets (Why? Likely they were worn out.) had scopes and bracket removed and mounting holes plugged. Budget collectors by original or replica PU scopes and mount these to bring them back. These are RESTORED but MISMATCHED.
VERY GOOD: Most that I have seen are REFURBISHED by the Soviet arsenals as Cold War reserves. Functionality was the criteria. Cosmetically they did not care so scrapes and muddy shellac are common. The rifle serial number was electric-pencilled onto the scope mount on the left side. Most collectors do not like this but it is legitimate. Many of these had parts from other rifles fitted during the refurbishment. A Mosin 91/30 has 4 serial number locations: 1. BARREL (not on body as US makers do) 2. BOLT 3. BOTTOM OF MAGAZINE 4. TOP OF BUTT PLATE. The parts were renumbered if necessary by the Soviets in what is called FORCE MATCHED. These renumberings are often in electric pencil or sometimes the old number was ground off (scrubbed) and a new "matching" number was stamped in.
BEST: Then there are the ALL ORIGINAL examples. Quite hard to find. Matching 4 stamped numbers, scope number on rifle, no electric pencilled numbers. These are the most desirable.
In the Vancouver BC area there are no dealer Mosin 91/30 snipers left as far as I can determine. All gone!
Some excellent reference web sites are available:
http://7.62x54r.net/
http://www.mosinnagant.net/sniper%20section/red-star-snipers.asp
I have one about these sites however. They perpetuate the myth that these are "Mosin-Nagants." The Soviets & Russians never called them that. That is a name applied by North Americans and others. By the way, Mosin is pronounced MOE-ZEEN.
I wish you good luck in finding the right rifle for you. Remember Rolls-Royce's saying which is very applicable to sniper rifles - "The quality remains long after the price is forgotten."
By the way, forget about trying to get a rifle identical to the one on the poster and DVD case for the movie ENEMY AT THE GATES.
That one is a one of a kind .... because the bolt is on the left side! The art director probably thought it would look cuter there and besides "No one will notice!" Vasily Zaitsev, the sniper portrayed in the movie, often used a Mosin 91/30 with an earlier large scope (PE or PEM) and in his memoirs mentions a semi-auto rifle which would be the SVT-40 sniper with PU scope.
Only the TULA made examples have the "CH" stamp on top of the barrel above the other markings. CH is an abbreviation for sniper in Russian. The Americans have to deal with the import markings stamped into their rifles and sometimes the English translation of Cyrillic letters in the serial numbers stamped in as well. Rifles brought to Canada from Russia (e.g. those imported in the white boxes from Molot) are as they left Russia.
Unless you find the needle in the haystack of a Mosin 91/30 sniper "brought back" by a veteran from Vietnam etc. the usual best bet in Canada is the Molot imports. They come in a white cardboard box and include some accessories (oil bottle, cleaning tools, but not the sling surprisingly) and a mini-sniper manual in Russian, these best part of which is the certificate in the back saying that THIS rifle serial number ##### left Russia with THIS scope serial number ###### on this date. Then you at least KNOW that it is not a North American put
Izhevsk made snipers have the sniper scope serial number stamped into the left side of the barrel, just above the wood.
On the internet you will see pictures claiming that a C in the serial number refers to sniper but this is wrong. It is strictly coincidence.
Soviet serial numbers jumped all over the place. The two letter prefixes do NOT follow alphabetically. Thus AZ1234 might well be made later than ZA1234 (I made up these numbers).
together. If buying or selling an ex-Molot sniper, PLEASE KEEP THE MANUAL WITH IT! Molot is just the wholesaler, not the maker and this did not mate the scopes and rifles.
Replica PU scopes are VERY light and I believe have a blue tint to the lens. Very functional, just not vintage. The post and cross wire MOVE on the originals but not on the replicas as I understand it.
ROUGH CATEGORIES:
WORST: There are Mosin 91/30 rifles that NEVER were snipers in service and have had original or replica scopes ADDED. Do not expect these to be accurate or to increase a lot in value. They are what many call "CLONES." If someone adds markings to pass it off as real, then they are FAKES.
GOOD: On forums you hear a lot about "ex-snipers" - mainly in the USA. These are rifles that were decommissioned by the Soviets (Why? Likely they were worn out.) had scopes and bracket removed and mounting holes plugged. Budget collectors by original or replica PU scopes and mount these to bring them back. These are RESTORED but MISMATCHED.
VERY GOOD: Most that I have seen are REFURBISHED by the Soviet arsenals as Cold War reserves. Functionality was the criteria. Cosmetically they did not care so scrapes and muddy shellac are common. The rifle serial number was electric-pencilled onto the scope mount on the left side. Most collectors do not like this but it is legitimate. Many of these had parts from other rifles fitted during the refurbishment. A Mosin 91/30 has 4 serial number locations: 1. BARREL (not on body as US makers do) 2. BOLT 3. BOTTOM OF MAGAZINE 4. TOP OF BUTT PLATE. The parts were renumbered if necessary by the Soviets in what is called FORCE MATCHED. These renumberings are often in electric pencil or sometimes the old number was ground off (scrubbed) and a new "matching" number was stamped in.
BEST: Then there are the ALL ORIGINAL examples. Quite hard to find. Matching 4 stamped numbers, scope number on rifle, no electric pencilled numbers. These are the most desirable.
In the Vancouver BC area there are no dealer Mosin 91/30 snipers left as far as I can determine. All gone!
Some excellent reference web sites are available:
http://7.62x54r.net/
http://www.mosinnagant.net/sniper%20section/red-star-snipers.asp
I have one about these sites however. They perpetuate the myth that these are "Mosin-Nagants." The Soviets & Russians never called them that. That is a name applied by North Americans and others. By the way, Mosin is pronounced MOE-ZEEN.
I wish you good luck in finding the right rifle for you. Remember Rolls-Royce's saying which is very applicable to sniper rifles - "The quality remains long after the price is forgotten."
By the way, forget about trying to get a rifle identical to the one on the poster and DVD case for the movie ENEMY AT THE GATES.
That one is a one of a kind .... because the bolt is on the left side! The art director probably thought it would look cuter there and besides "No one will notice!" Vasily Zaitsev, the sniper portrayed in the movie, often used a Mosin 91/30 with an earlier large scope (PE or PEM) and in his memoirs mentions a semi-auto rifle which would be the SVT-40 sniper with PU scope.
- Location
- The Badlands
You really need a sharp eye to find an actual sniper around as there are so many repros in circulation....BUYER BEWARE.....
- Location
- Richmond, BC, CANADA
I disagree with grelmar completely. There are lots of excellent references on the Internet and in published materials that you can consult. Over the years I have owned half a dozen original Mosin 91/30 PU sniper rifles with matching original scopes. One was factory original and five were arsenal reconditioned by the Soviet military.
Reproduction Mosin 91/30 snipers do exist in Canada but are more of a problem in the USA. Do your homework. Be informed. "Caveat emptor" ( buyer beware).
In Canada many of the Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles with PU scopes are not repros, especially those obtained from Molot in Russia. The Molot snipers are reconditioned ORIGINAL snipers not reproductions. Original scopes, original sniper rifles, perhaps with scopes reassigned to other genuine sniper rifles by the arsenals, arsenal overhauled and placed in storage for the next war or next Communist inspired revolution. Finding a Mosin 91/30 sniper that was not reconditioned is indeed a challenge, but it is possible. The major clue is not having the electric penciled rifle serial number on the scope bracket's left sidewall.
A variation is the ex-sniper rifle with plugged mounting holes usually where the owner has obtained a real PU scope and bracket and has mounted these. In Lee-Enfield terms thus is a mismatched set. These are talked about a lot in the USA.
Half and half repro is an ex-sniper with a reproduction PU scope and or bracket or an original scope and bracket fitted to an ordinary MOSIN 91/30 rifle with a repro bent bolt.
Reproduction sniper rifles include those, especially in the USA which were standard 91/30 infantry rifles which have had a bent bolt modification and have had an replica PU scope and bracket fitted. The replica scopes tend to be very light, have a blue tinge in the lens I believe and behave differently when adjusted I.e. On originals the post moves left and right but apparently on the Repros the post appears to stay centred.
Reproduction Mosin 91/30 snipers do exist in Canada but are more of a problem in the USA. Do your homework. Be informed. "Caveat emptor" ( buyer beware).
In Canada many of the Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles with PU scopes are not repros, especially those obtained from Molot in Russia. The Molot snipers are reconditioned ORIGINAL snipers not reproductions. Original scopes, original sniper rifles, perhaps with scopes reassigned to other genuine sniper rifles by the arsenals, arsenal overhauled and placed in storage for the next war or next Communist inspired revolution. Finding a Mosin 91/30 sniper that was not reconditioned is indeed a challenge, but it is possible. The major clue is not having the electric penciled rifle serial number on the scope bracket's left sidewall.
A variation is the ex-sniper rifle with plugged mounting holes usually where the owner has obtained a real PU scope and bracket and has mounted these. In Lee-Enfield terms thus is a mismatched set. These are talked about a lot in the USA.
Half and half repro is an ex-sniper with a reproduction PU scope and or bracket or an original scope and bracket fitted to an ordinary MOSIN 91/30 rifle with a repro bent bolt.
Reproduction sniper rifles include those, especially in the USA which were standard 91/30 infantry rifles which have had a bent bolt modification and have had an replica PU scope and bracket fitted. The replica scopes tend to be very light, have a blue tinge in the lens I believe and behave differently when adjusted I.e. On originals the post moves left and right but apparently on the Repros the post appears to stay centred.
There are several great topics dedicated to SVM's on Russian gun forum. Google Translate is your friend: http://forum.guns.ru/forumtopics/164.html
It is really worth reading, especially since the majority of people here think that SVM's from recent Molot import are fake. I was lucky to find one non-refurbished 1944 Izhevsk SVM from that shipment here in NL.
It is really worth reading, especially since the majority of people here think that SVM's from recent Molot import are fake. I was lucky to find one non-refurbished 1944 Izhevsk SVM from that shipment here in NL.
Yes, I have had one with modern turrets. Functioned like a scope does that would be made today. The turret screws could be loosened to be zeroed. The windage worked the same way but the instructions (as I remember) wanted you to zero the windage the same way as the original Mosin PU's did, shim or file. I think the newer scopes were/ are sold by Kalinka optics. Before the rush of old NOS/refurb/china copies of these scopes hit the market.
Thanks everyone for the useful information. I have been wondering about how to tell a reproduction scope from an original and found that helpful.
Now I have also seen images of scopes with a hammer and sickle stamped on them and others without. I was leaning towards the hammer and sickle stamping meaning a reproduction but am unsure, so does anyone one if this is another indication of original or reproduction or if it means nothing at all?
Sorry if this has been answered before or is an obvious question.
Now I have also seen images of scopes with a hammer and sickle stamped on them and others without. I was leaning towards the hammer and sickle stamping meaning a reproduction but am unsure, so does anyone one if this is another indication of original or reproduction or if it means nothing at all?
Sorry if this has been answered before or is an obvious question.
Even the modern repro scopes from the Ukraine etc. have reticles that move with the turrets.
The only scopes I've seen with a centered reticle are the Accumounts ones, which are made in China.
You still have to mechanically centre them with shimming and grinding or you run out of adjustment despite the apparent centering.
One way to tell original scopes is by looking at the turret top screws. The originals are rounded and protrude (convex), the modern ones all seem to have flat screws.
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So far I have seen two Izhevsk SVM's with all original parts and blueing(except all were coated with shellac). I bought one in NL and another one is in USA 533 numbers older than mine with same prefix. There were unmolested 1944 Tula SVM's reported on Russian forum as well. Here is the link to my thread there: http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/164/1301427.html and some good read here: http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/164/586659-12.html You have to use Google Translate or something. My apologies for hijacking this thread.
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