I have always wondered that myself. Personally, I would use bore diameter, throat & muzzle wear & absence of pitting as my criteria.
Mosin snipers
- Thread starter Flamingchicken
- Start date
I have always wondered that myself. Personally, I would use bore diameter, throat & muzzle wear & absence of pitting as my criteria.
Sorry Westrile - the majority of the recent Molot snipers are legit WWII snipers that have been refurb'd - some of course were forced matched and had replacement parts. We had this debate when they first arrived and there is no doubt that the majority of these rifles are original WWII sniper receivers/barrels with original WWII Scopes/Mounts, assembled with WWII or Post-War Mosin parts.
Many are forced matched - struck out/linned out - with new numbers added (stamped/electro penciled) to match (generally the bolt, floor plate or butt plate). Some have the mismatched parts ground and forced matched/stamped (you can tell by ground markings and the difference in original/post war fonts).
Some have post war parts (stocks, small parts such as magazine base plates etc.).
But the serial number ranges are correct for the recievers/barrels, mounts have proper variations of markings, and the scopes display all the appropriate years of production/makers/serial number ranges. They even have the appropriate refurb markings on the scopes with appropriate years of refurbishment stamped on many of the scopes. And yes Verginia there was a 1947 rifle at a local CT in Leduc as well.
So I call B.S. left right and centre...
Even PS sold molot rifles and repro snipers and divided them and listed them seperately.
The PS repro snipers are very good - I used to own one before the availibility of the Molot snipers. The scopes are near identical but are clearly produced recently. The scope caps are also close but different and mounted differently. These are high quality reproductions and very accurate. They also use only one scope manufacture marking/do not have refurb markings on the scope etc. There are less convincing repro scopes out there as well.
Molot was put in charge of destroying millions of small arms. The industrialist bastards simply decided not to destroy many of them and to export them as "newly" produced rifles to export markets. Hence why every Molot standard 91/30 and Sniper 91/30 has a laser engraved marking under the hand guard stating that the rifles are "Made in Russia" with two digits "12" marking the year of the "newly" manufacture (2012). They have done the exact same thing with SKS rifles.
So go on and believe the consipiracy that these are new rifles produced in 2012/13 with original markings, etc, etc, etc, - because there is no way they were made in the 1940/50s.....LOL.
Many are forced matched - struck out/linned out - with new numbers added (stamped/electro penciled) to match (generally the bolt, floor plate or butt plate). Some have the mismatched parts ground and forced matched/stamped (you can tell by ground markings and the difference in original/post war fonts).
Some have post war parts (stocks, small parts such as magazine base plates etc.).
But the serial number ranges are correct for the recievers/barrels, mounts have proper variations of markings, and the scopes display all the appropriate years of production/makers/serial number ranges. They even have the appropriate refurb markings on the scopes with appropriate years of refurbishment stamped on many of the scopes. And yes Verginia there was a 1947 rifle at a local CT in Leduc as well.
So I call B.S. left right and centre...
Even PS sold molot rifles and repro snipers and divided them and listed them seperately.
The PS repro snipers are very good - I used to own one before the availibility of the Molot snipers. The scopes are near identical but are clearly produced recently. The scope caps are also close but different and mounted differently. These are high quality reproductions and very accurate. They also use only one scope manufacture marking/do not have refurb markings on the scope etc. There are less convincing repro scopes out there as well.
Molot was put in charge of destroying millions of small arms. The industrialist bastards simply decided not to destroy many of them and to export them as "newly" produced rifles to export markets. Hence why every Molot standard 91/30 and Sniper 91/30 has a laser engraved marking under the hand guard stating that the rifles are "Made in Russia" with two digits "12" marking the year of the "newly" manufacture (2012). They have done the exact same thing with SKS rifles.
So go on and believe the consipiracy that these are new rifles produced in 2012/13 with original markings, etc, etc, etc, - because there is no way they were made in the 1940/50s.....LOL.
Personally.....cudos to Molot for marking and exporting these rifles...I picked up a 1943 dated Tula 91/30 sniper rifle with her serial number matching CB calibrated SVT scope....lots of collectable jems in the mix....
I'll call BS too. The Molot snipers I have (3) are real, and what is more, they shoot like real snipers.
If you want to claim "fake", you should provide evidence. Pretty irresponsible of Westrifle since they have a commercial reputation to maintain. Others, well this is the internet so you can say pretty much whatever you like.
If you want to claim "fake", you should provide evidence. Pretty irresponsible of Westrifle since they have a commercial reputation to maintain. Others, well this is the internet so you can say pretty much whatever you like.
Do you have an extra for sale
Nope...do you have an extra?
Don't give up. I have had one for about a year (Tula 1943). The other two (Izhevsk 1944) I found about a month ago. I asked at a gun store that I pass occasionally, "Got any Mosins?". "Nope" says the first guy and the second guy says "all we got is snipers". They had them stored since July (their firearms book showed they were received in July).
They were in such good condition I bought both. Mirror bore, crisp rifling. Both slug 0.3122 and both are 0.3004<x<0.3008 minor (land) diameter. Same dimensions muzzle and throat which means they are as close to new condition as you can reasonably expect to get.
Scopes were a little bit of an issue. One fogged up internally as soon as I took it to the range. This is fairly easy to repair by disassembling the scope and repacking with damping grease (used for cameras etc.). The other has a reticle problem that I first though was a piece of dirt but it is actually a burr on the reticle that was present from the time of manufacture. Trying to locate a replacement (probably a donor scope).
ghostntheshell
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Why go through that trouble to fake one ?... I doubt they have the resources, workforce, and the funds to do so...just to import the small number you see here...considering they sell for under 1k....I dont think the value is there for a major arsenal like Molot to make so few "fakes"and export them...Still if there is an element of truth to the recent imports being faked..do tell..
I have a clone and shoot it often. It is good enough to shoot better with handloads.
Today I shot it with Russian Milsurp at 100 yards. Hand loads would group an inch tighter.
I think the question that begs to be asked here is what are the advantages of a "real" sniper over a repro?
Aside from bragging rights and some extra money is it likely that the real ones will be in any better shape after seeing combat?
West rifle just added another 3 snipers to their online inventory today, all going for $550. After posting a WTB I've seen anywhere from $650 to $1000 as asking prices. Now I understand an original will be worth more to a collector, but for a buyer like me who wants one for the range I'm not seeing the advantages
Aside from bragging rights and some extra money is it likely that the real ones will be in any better shape after seeing combat?
West rifle just added another 3 snipers to their online inventory today, all going for $550. After posting a WTB I've seen anywhere from $650 to $1000 as asking prices. Now I understand an original will be worth more to a collector, but for a buyer like me who wants one for the range I'm not seeing the advantages
Other than bore dimensions, quality of the scope/mount and the installation are the main differences. From the comments I have seen can over the years, you can expect a smaller group size from a real one vs a repro (in general) by at least an inch. This assumes that a mid to late war rifle was used for the conversion.
Original snipers were manufactured purposefully for accuracy.
Mosin production involved a series of relatively simple manufacturing steps; to achieve the necessary volume, many lines were run in parallel. Most lines would have been optimized for volume. A few others were optimized for consistency of manufacture aimed at providing rifles suitable for the sniper role (Tula sniper rifles were marked CH or CN).
The main differences would have been the frequency of gauging, tool changes/tool life, and perhaps tool feed and speed. The most critical process for accuracy is broaching the barrel to produce the rifling. In particular, the rate of twist must not change for the length of the barrel. The broach (or work piece) must be rotated in exact timing with the advance of the broach. This timing was controlled by a series of gears. Workers and craftsmen of the time would know which, among hundreds of machines, were the most precise.
If you buy an original then you know that it was made for accuracy and was subject to testing (and use) after manufacture. It was accurate enough, or it became an ex-sniper (or scrap metal). A "newly made" sniper has no history. It may never be capable of less than 4"@100 regardless of what you do to it, or what ammunition you use. It could outshoot all the original snipers, but it probably won't.
If you pay the $100 premium, the barrel is in good condition, and you find the right combination of shims and ammunition, you should see the 1.5" group at 100. I'm still looking but getting closer.
Mosin production involved a series of relatively simple manufacturing steps; to achieve the necessary volume, many lines were run in parallel. Most lines would have been optimized for volume. A few others were optimized for consistency of manufacture aimed at providing rifles suitable for the sniper role (Tula sniper rifles were marked CH or CN).
The main differences would have been the frequency of gauging, tool changes/tool life, and perhaps tool feed and speed. The most critical process for accuracy is broaching the barrel to produce the rifling. In particular, the rate of twist must not change for the length of the barrel. The broach (or work piece) must be rotated in exact timing with the advance of the broach. This timing was controlled by a series of gears. Workers and craftsmen of the time would know which, among hundreds of machines, were the most precise.
If you buy an original then you know that it was made for accuracy and was subject to testing (and use) after manufacture. It was accurate enough, or it became an ex-sniper (or scrap metal). A "newly made" sniper has no history. It may never be capable of less than 4"@100 regardless of what you do to it, or what ammunition you use. It could outshoot all the original snipers, but it probably won't.
If you pay the $100 premium, the barrel is in good condition, and you find the right combination of shims and ammunition, you should see the 1.5" group at 100. I'm still looking but getting closer.
Where did you get this info? Just awfully curious....
