Most powerful and practical antique handgun

Darkwater said:
It's funny, I wasn't aware that whistling attracted Bears. Learn something new every day!

My wife grew up in a remote community in northern Ontario, where the women spend days and days during prime blueberry season collecting berries in the bush. They continually whistle and whoop, to keep track of each other and alert bears in the area. No one has been mauled so far, at least not in the last few generations, but I'll have to let them know that whistling actually attracts bears. Cause there's lots of bears in that neck of the woods, and I want them to be safe.

Anyways, when I go out I often take my webley MkII. I like to plink after eating blueberries. Guess I might need it for the bears that the whistling attracts!
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My experience has been the same as yours. I've been running around in the northern Ontario bush since the age of 10 (50 years).
 
Powerful old obsolete handguns are pretty cool, big bucks and rare there was the Civil War revolver with a 20 gauge shotgun under the barrel and another I believe was a Webley577/ 50 caliber Sudanese handgun. 577 Snider cartridge cut down below the shoulder.
 
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The LeMatte (?) was an ACW .44 calibre revolver with a 20 ga barrel as well. Very unwieldly beast. Repros are available, but they are 'restricted' like all other cap & ball guns.

Looks like we have another report to anticipate - the shooting of a charging bear with a "Mare's Leg" rifle/pistol. Damn, with all the interest in what gun to use for the purpose, you'd think there would be some reported incidents, especially in jurisdictions where bear seasons have been curtailed.

There must be areas where the woods are crawling with bears just waiting to ambush unwary hikers and hunters.
 
burnt_servo said:
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Watching Hickok 45 wrestle with the large loop lever and stiff Rossi action serves to illustrate the clumsiness of the configuration. As a Cowboy Action Shooter, I can vouch for the scarcity of large lever loops on CAS lever action rifles/carbines.

The large loop was intended for twirling the gun, not the stuff for the average Joe who thinks he's John Wayne, Steve McQueen or Chuck Connors.

I'm also amused by the term SBR (Short Barrel Rifle). My AR 15 has a 16" barrel but is regarded as a "carbine". AR's with shorter barrels are referred to as SBR's.

Go figure ....
 
Does anyone have any experience with shooting one of the old revolvers in .500 Tranter? I am not sure of the proper name for this round, and reliable information on them is hard to come by (at least on the internet).

All I can tell is that they were probably a more 'keep it real' version of the .577 Boxer for lesser well heeled folks.

I guess it's an example of non Amero-centric rounds just being quite obsolete even with the revival of interest in old black powdercalibers.

Here is a thread on a Belgian made .500 black powder cartridge revolver someone recently bought.

Looks like a RIC style design.

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/9446#.VPylb45RbdU

Another thread on them:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?155481-500-Webley-Cartridge

Would be fun to shoot one, not sure how practical it would be for use against bears. They would probably be more for bragging rights than anything practical.
 
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Gary James, a writer for Guns & Ammo has done several articles on antique British arms, including the .500 Tranter.
 
Sharps '63 said:
I've been charged by a bear as has one of my friends. I was armed, he was not. My bear backed off at 15m on it's third feint. His swatted him on the cheek.

I asked what gun would have helped. Answer - one in my hands! However, he had two dogs that were mixing it up with the bear until it ran off. He said he would not have fired into the melee.

The Rossi 'Ranch Hand' is a neat toy. If you hand time to deploy it, it might do the job, calibre wise. Practice would help.

Two pals annually attend a Forestry training session that includes a 'charging bear' target they engage with 12 gauge shotguns, usually a pump. Both are CAS competitors and one had his SxS.
The 'bear' charges from 25m. Most get off two shots before the 'bear' is upon them, if they haven't short stroked the gun. My pals managed three. Misses were common for most. They said it was unnerving, and this was just play.

Conclusion - best 'bear defence' gun is a 12 ga SxS with two quick, non-jamming, non-short stroking shots - "Blam, Blam!" After that, the bear wins.
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I feel horrible asking, but....buckshot or slugs?
 
Why feel horrible for asking a civil question?

He came back with some 1300 fps 1 oz. slug loads, so I presume that was the ammo supplied. I swapped him some 1600 fps loads and found I really liked the lower velocity loads.
Buckshot loads would have chewed up the targets pretty much, but in the field, would be pretty devastating at close range.
 
not to spiral thread down the hole of " bear defense " , but I have never run across any sort of bear that did not announce its self before laying eyes on it .

bears are not waiting in the tops of trees like ninjas , waiting for a unsuspecting human .


and if you do run across a bear , the first thing you do is put something between you and him . if he decides to come after you , he has to go around something to get to you which mean a extra shot of 2 .


the other thing I have seen is dumbasses giving "warning shots " , or they start shooting at the bear freehand when it is like 200 meters off still ( meaning wasting ammo and possibly wounding a bear that more than likely would leave you alone ) .

people also do not practice with their firearms enough , and lots people do not maintain their firearms properly , making them unreliable .

people in general also have not learned to control themselves and not panic ....plenty of time after the fact to have a nervous breakdown .... again this is where practice with the actual firearm you will be using come into play .
 
The only time I would ever think about shooting a Bear with my Antique is as a last resort as its not legal to pack anything else. I would be shooting at point blank range and as my last option.
A well placed shot.
Even in the roof of its mouth as it try's to chew my hand off.
Better than not having anything.
 
Guns in regards to wild animals I have always looked at the Gun as a mind changer.

In my earlier years my brother and I were out looking for bears in the oat fields. Well we found one not looking for any trouble just minding its own time. My brother shot it and and hit it (a poor placed shot tho). Down out if sight in the standing oats it went. We walked up in the oats off to the side of each other to cover one another. When we got close the Bear rushed my brother and he fired everything he had in his gun (I think he missed he was panicking) All he could say to me was SHOOT THE BLACK! SHOOT THE F%&KI&G BLACK! I dropped that thing about 8 feet from him. It was like a train as it did not want to stop.

The First shot at that bear changed its mind into a killer as it wanted to get what was hurting it.

Also I have seen a unprovoked attacking Bears (just protecting her cubs as people too close) and with a well placed shot even over its head change her mind and she runs away with the cubs.
For what it is worth :>)
 
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There is a French 1874 for sale in the EE right now - go get it and ream it for .45acp or .455 and it will be the best piece of iron that you've ever bought.
 
Darkwater said:
With the amount of bear defense that seems to be required for wilderness safety where most gun nutters live, I'm sure glad the black bears in Manitoba are much less vicious. Around here, we whistle while we hike for bear safety, and shoot our guns for fun. Surprising low death rate doing that.
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Once someone dies then bear defence will start?
 
cory moffat said:
the only time i would ever think about shooting a bear with my antique is as a last resort as its not legal to pack anything else. I would be shooting at point blank range and as my last option.
A well placed shot.
Even in the roof of its mouth as it try's to chew my hand off.
Better than not having anything.
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exactly
 
Sharps '63 said:
Why feel horrible for asking a civil question?

He came back with some 1300 fps 1 oz. slug loads, so I presume that was the ammo supplied. I swapped him some 1600 fps loads and found I really liked the lower velocity loads.
Buckshot loads would have chewed up the targets pretty much, but in the field, would be pretty devastating at close range.
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Was just worried I was side-tracking the topic too much! :redface:


Thanks sincerely for the answer, though! :cheers:
 
Not the most powerful, and certainly not a "bear defence" device, but a Swiss model 1882 is hard to beat in terms of accuracy, build quality, and reliability. Some were still in service as late as the 1960's. 100 grains of lead going 900fps is not a show stopper, but better than slapping 'em with yer ####. :) Personally, I'd carry a 12 gauge pump with slugs.
 
fat tony said:
I have heard they are only to be used with lead bullet loads, not the 230 grain FMJ. Any views on this?
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I recommend useing lead bullets in all antique revolvers as CJ or FMJ just cause more presure being harder than lead.
keep the bullets very close to bore size to.
For accuracy i like my chamber throats and bores to be close to the same dia.
I use lead soft enough you can mark it with your thumb nail even some lead bullets are to hard.
a good Keith SWC about 250 gr doing close to 800 fps will do more danage than most people think there great killers and leave full caliber holes in stuff.

Anyone intrested in antique handguns and shooting more powerfull reloads in them should buy elmer keiths book SIX GUNS.
Its alot of great reading. theres and entire chapter on handgun hunting and he mentions which antique handguns can handle his loads of 2400 smokeless like the DA 1878 colts and others. you need to have the right reloads tho with a presure curve like BP or as close to it as you can get.
Jethunter on cgn has great bullets for sale for antique revolvers!
 
Darkwater said:
With the amount of bear defense that seems to be required for wilderness safety where most gun nutters live, I'm sure glad the black bears in Manitoba are much less vicious. Around here, we whistle while we hike for bear safety, and shoot our guns for fun. Surprising low death rate doing that.
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Same here in NB, but in the past few years there has been a rising number of vicious blackie attacks on woods workers. I would like the handgun option for when I am out fixing sap lines in the early spring or cutting wood in the early fall. I have and have carried an antique Remy 1858 in 44 cal, I carry it loaded and capped but with the hammer on an empty chamber. The annoying thing is the unload, so every couple of days I target shoot the 5 rounds and load fresh. When loaded and not in use I remove the cylinder and store separate. I would prefer the convenience of a cartridge gun.
 
fraserdw said:
Same here in NB, but in the past few years there has been a rising number of vicious blackie attacks on woods workers. I would like the handgun option for when I am out fixing sap lines in the early spring or cutting wood in the early fall. I have and have carried an antique Remy 1858 in 44 cal, I carry it loaded and capped but with the hammer on an empty chamber. The annoying thing is the unload, so every couple of days I target shoot the 5 rounds and load fresh. When loaded and not in use I remove the cylinder and store separate. I would prefer the convenience of a cartridge gun.
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Maby get a modern cartridge adapter cylinder for it ? i think the pietta ones fit the original guns with some tinkering eh,and can be made to work there was one sold awhile back in 45 schofield which is what you want with the bore in your 44 Remy you need .454 SWC bullets with the longest case you can find so 45 Sch would be perfect.
Funny you posted this about useing a cap and ball. in elmers book sixguns theres a story about theses guys who in the 1860s would put out a bait then sit above it in a tree waiting when the bear came up to the bait BLAM!!! right thru the top of the skull.
they killed alot of bears that way. not sure if they knew Black bears can climb tress or not LOL but thats what they claim.
Lotsa biger game was droped with handguns in the 1800s and even before.
People used what they had and in alot of cases it was a cap and ball with a full BP charge and a lead rd ball.

Anyway look into the cartridge adaptor cylinders i know a few guys with cap and ball have gone that route and were happy not all will fit tho im pretty sure pietta ones do maby someone thats done this will chime in .
you dont need to alter the gun either you just take out the cylinder to reload the cartridges when empty. i think its faster really and if you have a few cartridge cylinders its even more deadly.
 
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