Most powerful and practical antique handgun

[Sharps '63]

Getting cap & ball revolvers approved for wilderness carry would be a good first step.

I've got several '58 Remington .44's and a 2nd Gen Colt .44 3rd Model Dragoon. The latter is a heavy weight, not the ideal holster arm, but the '58's would be a viable option.
Ballistically, they would equate to a modern .38 Spl. +P load with a .451 RB over 33/35 grs FFFg.

 

[nowarningshot]

Whistling works....almost always. Bears are almost always much more afraid of you than you of them. 99/100 times....Unfortunately they don't come numbered, my family has a history of being chased, fortunately we seem to be OK climbers. Just getting older, slower, and fatter.....so something for protection makes sense.

 

[Sharps '63]

In my experience, game animals, including bears are not affected by gunfire noise.

As for climbing, if the bear pursues the climber, the tree had better be able to withstand the weight load!

The more I think of it, the better I like the idea of touching off a noisy, smoky cap & ball .44 revolver into an aggressive bear who gets too close for comfort. The smoke and fire along with the noise might be an effective deterrent and infinitely more fun than a 'bear banger.

 

[anchor3593]

I have heard they are only to be used with lead bullet loads, not the 230 grain FMJ. Any views on this?

This is about the French Chamelot 11mm reamed to .45acp.

I've used FMJ but the SD was wider than it should be - so I went to a cast lead 200 gr Lee tumble lube - and this was a little better - so I pushed the lead into the case further so all of the lead that would contact the bore is inside the case and then gave it a really firm taper crimp with a Hornady taper crimp die to swage the bullet smaller. The SD is really good now - and I loaded it to about 1 1/2 times the power of the factory load - which is still a very light 45 acp load.

The outside bore dimension is about .452 from factory, but the lands are very deep (high) - making a very tight squeeze for a .452 bullet. The original factory bullet had only a little band at the front of the bullet that engaged the rifling and the rest of the bullet just sat on top of the lands on the way out.

My bullet gets squeezed small at the front - by the taper crimp die - and the back of the bullet is likely about .450 and gets upset a bit to fill the bore. I seat the bullet very deep into the case to allow a bit of speed to build up before it hits the rifling. It works very well - a very reasonable SD and being as accurate as I can judge and has a very respectable amount of power out of a perfectly trustworthy gun.

The weakest link in these French guns is not the cylinder, but the backstrap - not that they are weak at all, but if we try to use full-power bullets in such a tight bore, we are forcing a long bullet surface down a very tight bore. If a fellow could ream the lands down a little, I reckon that full power loads could be used - apparently they have been used in the past - but it does seem like modern .45 acp ammo may be more like +p stuff used to be. I judge them to be stronger - that is to last longer with many repeated reasonable loads than a Webley - but maybe others would disagree. I can't even imagine what might wear out first on the French.

And finally, to answer the above question - I don't honestly know if lead, or copper swages and slides easier. We all have a hunch that lead would swage easier, being softer, but maybe we should try a test - maybe a the lower friction of the copper would reduce pressure. Punching a few leads through a barrel would maybe tell something - and a little hydraulic press with a pressure gauge would tell more. Very similar loads with FMJ and lead shot over a chrony would tell something also.

 

[Sharps '63]

In the current 70th Anniversary issue of "BC Outdoors" magazine, there is an article on bear charging by Forensic Firearms Consultant Al Voth.
I recommend it to those who think they are adequately defended against a bear charge by their "antique" revolver. The test Voth conducted would make a good challenge for those who pack an "antique" in the boonies.

He starts by discussing the biomechanics of a human attack and the time it takes for a man to cover a known distance from "A" to "B" and then calculates time lapsed allowing for reaction time, etc. Then he extrapolates the data to a motivated bear with "four on the floor" and a real attitude.

He and an assistant do some snap shooting on a stationary target with a bolt action rifle to establish par times. Then they rig up a "charging bear" target on a stand mounted on a sled, pulled by a rope. The "bear" charged from 15 yds, the MINIMUM calculated distance for a shooter with a rifle at the "low ready", expecting the charge. Getting off two shots was very difficult and misses with one were frequent. They experienced one AD in the process, not an unlikely occurrence if you were facing a real bear.

This closely parallels the test I mentioned earlier where shooters were armed with 12 ga shotguns, the "bear" charging from 25 yds. Two shots were possible, hitting with both a real challenge.

Conclusion? A prepared hunter should not let a bear approach closer than 10 yds, even if he is in the "ready" position. Bear in mind (pun intended) that we are discussing the use of a bolt action rifle here, not a handgun, SxS or pump of any kind.

Earlier he covers the use of a handgun by a cop in the case of a "charging man" scenario. Gun in hand, a cop has a chance on a human knife charge from 20 yds. If it's closer, it becomes a tie, which means the cop loses.
If the gun is holstered or the cop is switched off to the danger, it's likely there will be a well attended regimental funeral.

I'm just the messenger. Dissenters are invited to contact the author of the article to take umbrage.

 

[H Wally]

Agreed with all of the above. It's pretty impressive how fast people, let alone animals can move.

That being said, there's no real opposition to that statement. Vast majority of people are suggesting that they like carrying antiques because it's fun, and better than a pointed stick. There's really no downside to shooting an antique in the woods as long as you know the laws, are polite and don't rub people the wrong way.

 

[Sharps '63]

Someone who expressed a fear of bears in the woods asked me what to do about it. Answer - Stay home!

The bear already is home and you are in his space. He is likely to react just as you would if you had an uninvited intruder in your home - with extreme prejudice.

If you wish to survive such an encounter, bring enough gun.

 

[plinker 777]

In the current 70th Anniversary issue of "BC Outdoors" magazine, there is an article on bear charging by Forensic Firearms Consultant Al Voth.
I recommend it to those who think they are adequately defended against a bear charge by their "antique" revolver. The test Voth conducted would make a good challenge for those who pack an "antique" in the boonies.

He starts by discussing the biomechanics of a human attack and the time it takes for a man to cover a known distance from "A" to "B" and then calculates time lapsed allowing for reaction time, etc. Then he extrapolates the data to a motivated bear with "four on the floor" and a real attitude.

He and an assistant do some snap shooting on a stationary target with a bolt action rifle to establish par times. Then they rig up a "charging bear" target on a stand mounted on a sled, pulled by a rope. The "bear" charged from 15 yds, the MINIMUM calculated distance for a shooter with a rifle at the "low ready", expecting the charge. Getting off two shots was very difficult and misses with one were frequent. They experienced one AD in the process, not an unlikely occurrence if you were facing a real bear.

This closely parallels the test I mentioned earlier where shooters were armed with 12 ga shotguns, the "bear" charging from 25 yds. Two shots were possible, hitting with both a real challenge.

Conclusion? A prepared hunter should not let a bear approach closer than 10 yds, even if he is in the "ready" position. Bear in mind (pun intended) that we are discussing the use of a bolt action rifle here, not a handgun, SxS or pump of any kind.

Earlier he covers the use of a handgun by a cop in the case of a "charging man" scenario. Gun in hand, a cop has a chance on a human knife charge from 20 yds. If it's closer, it becomes a tie, which means the cop loses.
If the gun is holstered or the cop is switched off to the danger, it's likely there will be a well attended regimental funeral.

I'm just the messenger. Dissenters are invited to contact the author of the article to take umbrage.

Sharps, I normally and with regularity disagree with most of what you post but on this occasion I can attest to the accuracy of the above scenario. I have encountered bear on several occasions, but on one occasion the bear was ghosting me on a portage trail. When he came out of the bush about 25 yards away and walked toward me I thought that was "all she wrote". Had it charged, I wouldn't have had the time to poop my pants, let alone draw, clear safety (or chamber) and fire. {if I was carrying which I wasn't}.
From what I'm to understand about predatory black bears, when they attack the victim rarely even realizes a stocking was taking place until its much too late and then have next to, or no time to react. Those that feel different are fooling themselves or delusional.
Having said all that, weird or predatory B bears are like less than 1 in a 1000. Even my instance isn't one of a predatory bear or I most certainly wouldn't be typing this. Not a doubt in my mind.

 

[Sharps '63]

I'm flattered that you agree with me. Approbation is not something I court or put much value on. We all have differing opinions, the best of which are based on real life experience.

I have several times mentioned my experience with a charging bear that made three feints, finally stopping at 15 yds. Oddly, I was dead calm during this encounter, despite two hysterical dogs and an unarmed wife behind me. Some sense told me that if this bear really wanted a piece of me, he would have steamrollered me on his first charge.

Some of that came from my faith in being able to place my one shot with my 50-70 '74 carbine. That based on dropping a large bear at 100 yds with one shot. Another took three rds (all I had with me) and I had to beat it to death with a large stick. That was exciting ..... an "antique" revolver would have administered a more dignified coup de grace.

Another time I walked up on a sow snoozing with her three cubs. The world exploded in fur! I had bears to my left, right, front and one cub up a tree behind me. When the dust settled, Momma came ambling back down the trail towards the bawling cub up the tree. I was in her path.

I was well camo'd and she got within 5 paces before noticing me as I knelt with a 20 ga shotgun resting on my knee, loaded with one slug up the spout (for deer) and the rest bird shot. We stared each other down and when it was evident that she wasn't going to charge, I backed off and gave her wide berth.

She collected her brood and we parted friends.

 

[MexicanForklift]

I always like the stories in these threads better than the opinions.

 

[Sharps '63]

You know what they say about opinions .....

My post re: the BC Outdoors article was about using a bolt action rifle on a simulated charging bear target. Readers will have to extrapolate the data or duplicate the test with their "antique" revolvers, from the holster and with gun in hand 'at the ready' position.

It would be a lot more fun than punching holes in defenceless beer cans and might be an eye opener as to the efficacy of a handgun on a 'charging bear' target. Anyone engaged in CAS, IDPA or IPSC can attest that it is not difficult to miss stationary targets you would centre hit if the clock wasn't running.

 

[anchor3593]

One variation of the charging bear scenario - when more than one person is involved. If our walking partner is attacked, are we going to prefer hosing down our buddy/wife/child and bear with bearspray in hopes that the bear will dislike the taste and leave us to defend ourselves from the buddy/wife/child - for nearly killing them with bearspray - or are we going to take an old revolver and dive in close to insert lead into the spine or skull of the beast?

A dog vs bear fight might make it easier to select the hide we prefer to perforate.

When there is another animal or human, I think that the likelihood of survival is much better - not 100% - but much better.

If there is a little cover - like a tree or brush to dive behind, it may give a guy just enough time to respond with a firearm.

 

[dingus]

You know what they say about opinions .....

My post re: the BC Outdoors article was about using a bolt action rifle on a simulated charging bear target. Readers will have to extrapolate the data or duplicate the test with their "antique" revolvers, from the holster and with gun in hand 'at the ready' position.

It would be a lot more fun than punching holes in defenceless beer cans and might be an eye opener as to the efficacy of a handgun on a 'charging bear' target. Anyone engaged in CAS, IDPA or IPSC can attest that it is not difficult to miss stationary targets you would centre hit if the clock wasn't running.

Well that may be true but why i carry my antique handguns is more of a last resort thing.
like that if i was being mauled by a bear intent on eating or hurting me bad (they dont just run up and kill you instantly , not very often anyway) they maul you so thats when id rather have that webley 45 caliber or 44 caliber CF handgun or any handgun really even a 8mmm lebal at close range is a good defence weapon, because at close range a shot in the mouth or under the chin up into the brain is very posible.
also the fact you might get one shot off before the bear gets to you could make him stop dead in his tracks or veer off giveing you a better chance.
I dont think anyone here is saying they would stand tall and brave and have plenty of time to aim and shoot down a chargeing bear with a antique handgun.
But if one did knock you down a handgun is gona come in handy better than alot of options.

I think if you read and watch the bear attack recreations you say why didnt anyone have a gun any gun as the black bear sits over the victom, protecting his kill peeling off flesh while the preson flounders about screaming for help.
anyone with any handgun could save the day.
Yes a shotgun or rifle would be better but if the bears are as fast as some say then id rather have a handgun in my hand than a gun leaning on a tree, id get clawed up chewed on maby, but win in the end in my case its me and my Dogs so there would be plenty of distractions. handguns tend to stay with us more than long guns when were in the bush.

I think its all about defence in a last resort to me not offence as far as a antique handgun goes.
If i have one and can legaly carry it why would i not take it.
cougars attack plenty of people here on the island to one older fellow killed a cougar that jumped on his back with his pocket knife a few years ago. that was a real fight but a thinking human brain and some type of weapon then there can be positive outcomes.
also I think anyone who does not fear a charging bear to some degree is full of it. LOL

 

[plinker 777]

^ yea, agreed. But in reality, one is in deep sh1t if a bear means you harm. In my scenario he was maybe 25 yards and closing at a walk and it froze me to the spot for a second "What the f is he up too?" racing through the brain. In that second, had he rushed me, I guarantee I wouldn't have been able to clear a holster let alone get a shot off. I hear what you're saying, a charge isn't the end of the fight...but in my opinion it is (its all over but the cryin' so they say). When I was younger I was in many, many physical altercations with people, but in that instance with the bear, I knew that I was physically out matched in every way 10 fold. Not a chance. If he has it in his mind you're dinner then you're dinner, nothing you can do about it.

I've heard about Americans who cc. Because they cc their head is always on the swivel and they have been quoted as saying that if anyone gets within a 20 ft. circle of them they take note. If this someone is acting suspicious/aggressive then its hand on piece. At 15 feet its out and at 7 feet its discharged. This is effective I suppose, but a kind of paranoid way to go about one's daily business, wouldn't you agree?
It's kind of the same in the bush, if I were always at the ready to kill a bear (or what have you). I suppose the threat of being killed or injured by a bear attack would go way down, however the reality is I don't walk about downtown metropolises' "marking targets" any more than I would in the forest. It just doesn't sound like much fun?

The odds that you will ever encounter a bear are slim. The odds that when you do encounter, that bear it is predatory or injured are less than slim. I would suggest you have better odds of being taken out by a widow maker while sleeping, sudden down draft overturning the canoe and drowning, or being struck by lightning. Just as one can do absolutely nothing to prevent these unlikely (and ridiculous) scenarios, like wise, spray, bells, bangers, won't help if the bear is truly predatory. Neither will an antique, a 12 ga, a .44 Rem Mag, or a hand grenade for that matter{as you won't get to it in time}...but as it's been said (and I'm still giggling about it, and can't argue against it), "better than waving my #### at it"[a bear]

 

[Sharps '63]

We still wait with bait on our breath for the first report of someone dropping an attacking bear by waving his #### "antique" revolver.

Last resort? - absolutely! Fight of your life? - Yep. Likelihood of you surviving and the bear not? - my money is on the bear.

 

[dingus]

Heres a few stories i found with a quick search now my 44 Sp handguns and my 45 schofield with reloads have more power than a 25 acp . anyway plenty of bears have been killed with small caliber handguns.
so its been done plenty of times.

From a Canadian wilderness handgun carry web site i found.....

…for those who say a handgun would be useless against a bear, I had another friend who killed an attacking black bear with a Basque .25ACP pocket pistol. He was berry picking in an abandoned gravel pit when a bear came in the other side of the pit to forage for berries itself, and decided he would rather have a fresh meat course with a side of a bucket of berries. My friend emptied all five rounds from the gun into the bear’s chest as it advanced, and it dropped dead at his feet.




Have had a few face-offs with wildlife over the past 45 years.
Most recently, while canoe camping in central Ont..
Tenting with my sister and grade school aged niece and nephew, I was awakened at pre-dawn gloaming by a Blackie foraging around in camp.
With kids sound asleep, it seemed prudent to drive the bold bruin off, then ski-dadle the youngster’s outta there in the canoes.
To that end, the antique revolver was loaded and the bear confronted at 25 yards or so.
He ignored my demands to vacate, and carried on trying to find his breakfast at the(clean) firepit.
Standoff.
Re-assured by the .45, I advanced a few steps and sternly repeated my commands. Bruin remained totally indifferent.
What to do now?.
Not wanting to awaken the tykes and have them milling about with a bear and a revolver in play … yelling was a no-no, so, I advanced some more and tossed an oak stick at his haunch. That worked. Blackie wandered off with aire’s of indignation, the kids got offshore right quick, while the adults broke camp.
No shots fired. Better believe though, that old antique felt welcome in the hand!.

And that is my point, predators seem to sense a humans resolve. Alpha behaviour has worked for me to diffuse confrontation. A convincing demonstration of alpha requires a gun in hand. They will smell ones fear if you are emptyhanded.

 

[dingus]

Then there was the Native woman in AB Canada who shot a record sized griz with a 22 Rf rifle plenty of antique handguns are more powefull than a 22 rf ....
Just shows they do have weak spots in there skulls.

Not something i would try but if you have no choice you use what you happen to have if your in danger.



H.V. Stent seems to have one of the best descriptions of the event on the Internet. From “Grizzly Guns” by H.V. Stent:


Bella Twin, an Indian girl, and her friend Dave Auger were hunting grouse near Lesser Slave Lake in northern Alberta. The only gun they had was Bella’s single-shot bolt-action .22 Rimfire rifle. They were walking a cutline that had been made for oil exploration when they saw a large grizzly following the same survey line toward them. If they ran, the bear would probably notice them and might chase, so they quietly sat down on a brush pile and hoped that the bear would pass by without trouble. But the bear came much too close, and when the big boar was only a few yards away, Bella Twin shot him in the side of the head with a .22 Long cartridge. The bear dropped, kicked and then lay still. Taking no chances, Bella went up close and fired all of the cartridges she had, seven or eight .22 Longs, into the bear’s head. That bear, killed in 1953, was the world-record grizzly for several years and is still high in the records today.


Read more: http://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/wha...a-world-record-grizzly-in-1953/#ixzz3UOTAEexD

 

[tacfoley]

Having watched a movie of a grizz closing rapidly on a man galloping away on a horse, I'd like to be far enough away from any charging bear to use something like, say, a Milan ATGW.

I feel pretty safe, here in rural East Anglia, from marauding bears, but hell, you just can never tell with them critters.

tac

 

[fat tony]

This is a complete derail.



I like the story about the .25acp dingus. The traditional .25acp commercial load is a 50 grain full metal jacketed bullet at around (?) 760 fps and 64 foot pounds of energy.

I tried a .25acp out once and dug the bullets out of the backstop. They were still in one piece and mushroomed quite nicely. This does not mean you should get a rifle in .25acp for bear defence, but It just goes to show the bullet construction is an important piece of the puzzle.

 

[fraserdw]

Having watched a movie of a grizz closing rapidly on a man galloping away on a horse, I'd like to be far enough away from any charging bear to use something like, say, a Milan ATGW.

I feel pretty safe, here in rural East Anglia, from marauding bears, but hell, you just can never tell with them critters.

tac

Well, you have the comfort of knowing the East Anglia peelers are just a phone call away, if you lucky you may even draw one actually carrying a gun!!!