Thanks for the lengthy reply.
I understand the concept of hobby and pro grade tools in general and I do understand getting the best tools for the job when it comes to personal safety.
It sounds like a lot of the reliability of issue guns comes from only using one or two loads that are tailored to the design or vice versa.
So if these cheap "hobby" guns cost $2000 (using cheaper parts with less quality)..... how much does a typical issue AR10 or similar rifle cost?
No problem. I'm a huge fan of AR10/AR308 rifles.
Sorry it gets longer...
Yes and no. Keep in mind the
professional guns have to also work reliably suppressed. Plus as they keep wanting shorter and shorter barrels with the military grade stuff, they need to do a bit more on top of matching the ammo along with controlling the magazines used. LMT/KAC for instance uses dual ejectors along with other slight mods to their bolts and tweaked gas systems such as changes in the gas block. Armalite with their shorter 20" barreled SASS uses an adjustable two position gas block. Many of the parts used for these guns are proprietary. H&K 417/G28/M110 , uses a piston system and has their own magazine which isn't compatible with any other AR rifles.
They also do things such as modified feed ramps and accuracy/reliability designed chambers. They don't usually tell you what chamber they are using but often it's a specialized one that is designed to provide better reliability in an AR gun while still providing match grade accuracy. The oberymer chamber of days past comes to mind along with recent M118LR chamber which is a hybrid design.
If they are just using a "match chamber" then I would be suspect that someone didn't do their homework before trying their hand in the AR308/AR10 game.
Issued, I don't know. Not cheap but that would include all the stuff such as bipod, optics etc. To put it into perspective you can privately buy an AR10 in Canada for $3000+, the SASS is $4500 , LMT MWS is $4500 with SS barrel, $3800 with CL, A KAC ECR SR25 is in the $6200 rang if you can find one. An H&K MR308A3-28 is in the $4000 range.
The 308 AR10/AR308 rifles were't popular and there were only a few choices a number of years back. You had the DPMS LR308 for $1500 and the Armalite AR10T for $3000. Things have changed, and other options became available. One negative with their popularity is that the prices have crept up even more. Previously you could find a decent deal on these rifles as most people went for the AR15 and didn't even take a second look at the AR10/AR308. Not these days. However you still get the sticker shock by those used to AR15 rifles. For instance a gen 1 DPMS which has been replaced by the much better GII, went for $1500. The AR15 equivalent would have been at the $1000 range or less. The 308 versions are more expensive than the AR15. They don't have the same standardization which means more variations on parts/specialized parts along with much smaller production numbers.
So what are the concerns with hobby grade?
1) Lesser materials such as 6061 with DPMS gen 1 , 6061 with NEA/BCL and not anodized. So not as durable. Lots will say it's not a big deal. That is until their trigger pin and take down pin holes elongate.
2) Internals aren't MPI / HP tested. You could run into problems with extractors, lugs etc. You could run into cheap screws for the gas key and also lack of staking which can cause a failure, extractor spring issues etc etc.
3) Internal lower parts kits could be made to lesser standards. Earlier wear and reliability isn't set for harsh conditions or in the case of triggers it won't ignite hard primers. Especially if the company just slapped in AR15 match trigger.
4) The internal geometry might not be universal and work with all mags. The Standard is KAC/LMT. The Gen3 pmag was modified to match the internals of the KAC/LMT. Many commercial grade companies might base theirs off the gen1 DPMS which can lead to problems as DPMS specs are inconsistent and far from tight tolerances. Even their own mags sometimes don't work in their own rifles.
5) The barrel:
A)Likely a twist rate to accommodate as many bullet weights/lengths as possible. Not optimum for accuracy with most common accuracy ammunition. Military grade AR10/AR308 rifles use a 1:11.25 or 1:11 twist, not 1:10. 168-175 being optimum.
B) The chamber is a match chamber instead of an appropriate for a gas gun chamber. Most military grade AR308 rifles use a modified chamber.
C) The barrel length is an odd length such as 18.5" for Canadian laws which may make most off the shelf match ammo miss the accuracy node as match ammo such as 168-175 SMK (based off military M118LR) is designed for 20-26" barrel lengths.
D) A hobby grade AR might not have matched up the gas tube length properly to their barrel length. carbine, mid and rifle length. Most will go rifle length, however they may need to go mid or carbine for the shorter barrel.
E) The feed ramps/barrel extensions might not be done right, which can cause loading problems and push back the bullet. Add this along with a wrong geometry and you get, problems.
6) Quality control might be suspect and things which should have been caught aren't. BCL for instance had the gas ring issue due to lack of smoothing the internals of the BCG.
7) The rifle might in reality be a frankengun with parts sourced from other manufacturers and then assembled together with the hopes that everything plays nice.
I would like to add. When I say professional grade that doesn't mean less accurate. In fact they are often far more accurate than most off the shelf AR10/AR308 rifles geared for the everyday shooter. Especially in the US where plinking with a 308 seems to be more popular (plus affordable). These rifles have to be extremely accurate. Your life and other people's lives (hostages, team members, general public etc) may be on the balance of whether or not that shot is made. These are precision rifles. They just also happen to be reliable as well as accurate.
Battle rifle vs precision argument with regards to these modern AR10/AR308 rifles:
The battle riffle 308 semi pretty much ended with the FN FAL (I am a fan of the right arm of the free world). Other than the SCAR 17 heavy used with some special forces, there aren't many new semi auto battle rifles being made/used by first world military or police. A battle rifle example available to us in Canada would be the Famae 542 or the M14. 5.56 became the predominant battle rifle round and the 308 battle rifles faded. The AR10/AR308 made a comeback in early 2000 as a
designated marksman rifle. The Canadians used the AR10t , Americans the KAC M110 (SR 25), Germans the HK 417 / G28 and later on the UK with the LMT MWS. Currently the Americans have changed over to an H&K speced version of the MR308A3, New Zealand added the LMT MWS and LMT just recently won the military contract to replace the 223 battle rifle and 308 precision rifles for the Estonia military.
These are precision rifles that have to be very accurate while also being reliable and not failing. Plus they have to work suppressed which is even more strain on them. While again being extremely accurate. Anyone that has shot one of the above rifles knows they are very accurate. It's not a case of reliability or accuracy. With a professional grade rifle you need both.
Hobby/Commercial grade for precision rifle:
Absolutely. In fact I have two for just that. The first one is a gen1 DPMS LR308 with the 24" bull barrel. After replacing the trigger and finding the ammo it actually likes it does the job very well. I also have backup extractor spring upgrades as this is a known issue with the DPMS LR308 gen1 Bolt Carrier group. If it fails or I run into problems then it's annoying and ruins a range trip but that's it. Still lots of fun and completely suitable for most shooters and having fun. My BCL 102 will fit into a non restricted version of the same thing when I'm done with it. Good fun. But... don't expect Armalite, KAC/LMT, HK etc reliability or build quality from it. In reality one of these hobby grade precision rifles might even out shoot those examples if you are willing to go with a full out target barrel rather than worrying about weight/handling.
These non professional grade rifles absolutely have their place and are tons of fun. At least the ones that work and don't throw fliers like a drunk playing darts are. Or fail to feed almost all types of ammo, don't take the mags you have etc etc. When they work they are great! Just note that
a hobby grade AR308/AR10 should also reflect that in it's price. The DPMS LR308 does. It's pretty much the cheapest entry into the AR10/AR308 world. The BCL 102 fits in here as well and is priced accordingly.
These rifles aren't trying to pretend to be what they aren't. They are absolutely suitable for their purposes. The Stag 10 while also hobby/commercial grade right now is in my opinion getting close to professional grade. I'm modding mine up to get it even closer by building one from the upper/lower kit. Lots of fun. Much easier these days then trying to piece one together was even a few years ago.
Something to note:
If you are looking to build a
precision rifle from one of these options there is one important criteria. You have to be
able to replace the trigger and most likely the barrel. If there are barriers to this then don't buy that rifle. The barrel is obvious to most. You want the best for the purpose. The trigger however is something that most new to AR10/AR308 precision rifles don't think much about. The reason an AR10/AR308 is perceived to be hard to shoot compared to a bolt gun is usually due to
the trigger lock time. A tactical precision or all out precision bolt gun has a very quick lock time. An AR308 in comparison has a very slow lock time. This means you have to keep the rifle on target longer ie follow through. With regards to trigger weight, I prefer 3 pounds but will settle for under 5 for tactical precision and 3 or less for a target rifle. Many prefer much lower. A trigger with a heavier pull and slow lock time isn't acceptable if you are going for a purpose built precision rig. The best trigger out there for lock times with the AR10/AR308 is made by Giselle.
If you can't change the trigger to a Giselle when you get to that point, then the rifle isn't going to be suited for that purpose. . You might not feel the need to depending on your use, but if buying a purpose specd precision rifle then it needs to be able to go this route to be truly suitable. Otherwise it is yet another compromise.
