Movie Guns...

sportee

sportee

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I was watching "A Full of Dollars" last night and noticed some inconsistency toward the end of the movie. The scene at the end where Eastwood is shooting it out with the leader of the gunrunners he talks about a "when a man with a 45 meets a man with a rifle" referring to his 45 cal SAA.

The problem is...in the closedup shot of his colt the barrel looks like a 45 cal but the cylinder is more like a 32-20...definitely not a 45. I imagine they used a lighter caliber and just opened up the end of the barrel to look like a 45.

I know there are lots of other movies that do odd little things like this as well...
 
On my hard drive at home, I have a picture of a "Clint Eastwood" display from the Gene Autry museum a few years ago, where they displayed the actual poncho, gunbelt & SAA that Clint used. According to the plaque, it was an Italian clone in .38/.357, so I guess you weren't too far off. Check out the pics here:
http://hollywoodprop.com/ouatii.htm
 
You must also remember these were the spagetti westerns of Sergio Leone. Back then there wasn't a lot of attention paid to historical detail or authenticity.The early American westerns were the same. Anyone ever see Custers last stand where they fought the Injun's with 94 winchesters instead of the sharps carbines? At least the newer westerns try to use authentic period pieces.
 
Remington conversion

I think it was on "The good, bad, and the ugly" that Clint used a Remington percussion/cartidge conversion. Either that or he was just re-loading by swapping the cylinders out... Kind of unusual for the time when all the movies used some kind of colt 6 gun.
 
I believe the 7th Cavalry were armed with Springfields Model 1873's not Sharps. CUster is believed to have carried a Remington Rolling block.
 
I remember the cylinder swapping too. It is hard to believe but the US cavalry used to swap cylinders on their Colts when charging into battle. All you had to do is remove a wedge,a key and the cylinder pin and then the cylinder. Quite a feat on a galloping horse. The speed loader of the day. According to the park warden at the Custer battlefield the Us calvary had a mish mash of arms. There was a change in calibers for the springfields.(don't quote me) I believe they were changing from a 50 or 52-70 or 90 to the 45-70. Alot of the soldiers did carry Sharps as well as Ballards and Spencers. Alot of the Springfields were regular army issue and not the carbine(there were a few). Being horse soldiers some opted for the shorter carbines. Custers outfit was a elite force and Custer was very arrogant. He didn't follow military protocall too well. That was what got him killed on thet fatefull day. It was hard to really know what arms were present at the battlefield because the indians picked up all the weapons. Most of the parks info comes from the cartridge cases left on the battlefield. The indians also were using gov't issued arms that were taken off dead troops at previous battles and skirmishes. According to the Ranger there were at least 11 different calibers found on the battlefield.
 
That Movie where Clint changed the Cylinders on his Remington 1858 was Pale Rider.
they did have Cartridge conversions for the 1858 Remington percussion revolvers.
It was a fast easy swap with no wedge.
Being a solid frame gun it was stronger than the colts open top models.
I have a Orignal 1858 remy with a cartridge conversion cylinder.
Its fast to Reload (if you have a couple cylinders in your belt like clint did)

They made a modern copy of the pale Rider Remy Conversion revolver if anyone wants to buy one.
not sure if its still available tho.
was a very fancy looking rig.
 
Custers last stand

Custer had theoption of bringing some Gatling guns on his campaign against the Sioux. He declined them because he felt that they would be a cumbersome burden for his cavalry. What a different story it might have been if he had.
It is my understanding that the British had them at Rourkes drift. For some reason there is no sign of them in the old classic movie.... I suppose spears and shields against bullets was a big enough edge but the gatlings would have taken away some of the "hero" aspect of the movie!

Steve
 
I'm not sure how much benefit one or two gatlings would have been to Custer. We think in terms of modern machineguns strafing the enemy and sweeping back and forth. In the era of the gatling, they were used for for fixed emplacements and they also tended to be around 1" bore. I also don't think they could be sprayed side to side very effectively.

cheers mooncoon
 
SaddleTramp said:
I remember the cylinder swapping too. It is hard to believe but the US cavalry used to swap cylinders on their Colts when charging into battle. All you had to do is remove a wedge,a key and the cylinder pin and then the cylinder. Quite a feat on a galloping horse. The speed loader of the day.
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I highly doubt that anyone ever swapped cylinders on a Colt. Certainly not on horseback. You'd have gun parts scattered all over the prairies.
 
British Gatlings and Nordenfeldt guns were naval weapons intended for clearing the decks of attacking ships. They were seldom dismantled and hauled inland. There were Gatlings at the siege of Karthoum however. From what I have read they were notoriously unreliable and considered a pain in the ass for all the work that had to be done to keep them firing. A Martini Henry and a bayonet were much preferred.
 
bdft said:
I highly doubt that anyone ever swapped cylinders on a Colt. Certainly not on horseback. You'd have gun parts scattered all over the prairies.
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This was actually practiced by both sides of the American civil war. The 1851,1860, 1861 colts were the favored pieces at the time and the confederate colt clones along with remingtons and lemats. Some of the guerilla fighters even had special loops attached to their saddles and gear to acommadate extra cylinders. Most were loaded with a paper cartridge consisting of ball,powder and some times but not always a cap wrapped in a nitrate paper which burnt up when fired. The paper had to be punctured when loaded. I do agree that there were parts scattered over the praries and battle field but this was war and any edge you could get on an enemy whether he was a soldier or an indian could save your own life. Extra cylinders or gun parts weren't hard to scavenge off a bloody civil war battle field. The early indian wars were mostly fought with surplus muzzle loading springfields left over from the civil war. They were 52 or 54 caliber and some were converted to take the 45-70 by sleeving the barrels and cutting in the trap door. This was done at the military armories. It proved to be expensive and later discontinued. Military contracts were made to Springfield and Sharps for new rifles but the Sharps were too expensive. General Custer when he made his last stand was ,along with his men, carrying the 1873 colt which used the .45colt cartridge which is still around today.Being a self contained round it was sought by most soldiers and with 6 easy reloadable rounds it was the cream of fighting weapons. Unfortunately the army believed in the single shot rifle for the lowly grunts and the colt 1873 was for officers and calvary. Believe it or not the army didn't set well with target practice.They thought it was a waste of money. Most military rifles were inacurate to start with and most soldiers couldn't shoot anyway. That contributed to alot of deaths during the indian campaigns.
 
bdft said:
British Gatlings and Nordenfeldt guns were naval weapons intended for clearing the decks of attacking ships. They were seldom dismantled and hauled inland. There were Gatlings at the siege of Karthoum however. From what I have read they were notoriously unreliable and considered a pain in the ass for all the work that had to be done to keep them firing. A Martini Henry and a bayonet were much preferred.
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The Gatling was a formible weapon but the operator had to be a man with ice water in his veins. They had to be cranked at a certain speed to work right. If you got excited in the heat of battle and cranked too fast they jammed solid. They had to sometimes be disasembled to get them to work again. I wouldn't want that responsibility...Would you...
 
SaddleTramp said:
This was actually practiced by both sides of the American civil war. The 1851,1860, 1861 colts were the favored pieces at the time and the confederate colt clones along with remingtons and lemats. Some of the guerilla fighters even had special loops attached to their saddles and gear to acommadate extra cylinders. Most were loaded with a paper cartridge consisting of ball,powder and some times but not always a cap wrapped in a nitrate paper which burnt up when fired. The paper had to be punctured when loaded. I do agree that there were parts scattered over the praries and battle field but this was war and any edge you could get on an enemy whether he was a soldier or an indian could save your own life. Extra cylinders or gun parts weren't hard to scavenge off a bloody civil war battle field. The early indian wars were mostly fought with surplus muzzle loading springfields left over from the civil war. They were 52 or 54 caliber and some were converted to take the 45-70 by sleeving the barrels and cutting in the trap door. This was done at the military armories. It proved to be expensive and later discontinued. Military contracts were made to Springfield and Sharps for new rifles but the Sharps were too expensive. General Custer when he made his last stand was ,along with his men, carrying the 1873 colt which used the .45colt cartridge which is still around today.Being a self contained round it was sought by most soldiers and with 6 easy reloadable rounds it was the cream of fighting weapons. Unfortunately the army believed in the single shot rifle for the lowly grunts and the colt 1873 was for officers and calvary. Believe it or not the army didn't set well with target practice.They thought it was a waste of money. Most military rifles were inacurate to start with and most soldiers couldn't shoot anyway. That contributed to alot of deaths during the indian campaigns.
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As usual, the generals were fighting the "last war". Accuracy wasn't important because they used massed volley fire. Nobody bothered to tell the Indians though. There's a good episode of Secrets of the Dead about Little Big Horn. Apparently its well documented, if not widely known, that Custer was badly outgunned. The Souix had a lot of Henry rifles while Custer's troops carried single shot trapdoor Springfields. Indians used guerilla tactics until Custer's poorly trained troops were separated and disorganized and then picked them off one at a time. It didn't happen anything like American popular history has it. In short, Custer died running.
 
An interesting read is the book "These are The Prairies"' by Alvina Hamilton. Also the local History for Willowbunch Sask. The sioux came to Canada after the battle, I couldn't believe the interpreter at the Custer Battlefield who had no knowledge that Sitting Bull was here.
In this books it is related how Sitting Bull travelled from Wood Mountain to Fort Qu'Appelle to see his friends. Apparently the Catholic priest there had many US army guns ,especially Colt revolvers, and pocket watches traded by the American sioux. It is aid that the watches were empty as when they quit working the Indians tore them open to see why and lost the innards.

Also the Americans made a big deal of the horse Comanche who was claimed to be the only survivor of the Battle of the Little Big Horn. Sitting Bull gave a horse to Inspector ( Major ) Walsh that bore the US Army brand.
 
Sitting Bull also spent the winter along the Frenchman River just west of the small town of Eastend Sk after he fled the US. Several artifacts have been found that trace back to him and his followers.The local Cree,Crow and Blackfoot weren't real happy about him being here. They thought the US military might come looking for him and they would get caught up in the middle of things. I can't find my reference material but I believe the Scout Jerry Potts and insp.Walsh of the RCMP had a pow-wow with Sitting Bull several times. The story goes that Sitting Bulls real name was Big Buffalo Bull Sitting on Hill. Potts,a halfbreed translator and scout got tired of the big name when translating and shortened it to Sitting Bull. That is the local lore anyway...
 
Murf said:
and pocket watches traded by the American sioux. It is said that the watches were empty as when they quit working the Indians tore them open to see why and lost the innards.
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It would seem more likely to me that the innards were thrown away so the watch case could be used as a snuff box or some similar purpose

cheers mooncoon
 
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