Musket Barrel Manufacturers
- Thread starter COTTON095
- Start date
vagrantviking
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
I've never heard of anyone in Canada making such a barrel. Maybe Loyalist Arms would be able to help you find one?
The first place I'd look is Track of the Wolf. Are things really so crazy down there that unusual muzzleloader parts are that difficult to get? Or is that configuration strictly a custom order item?
The first place I'd look is Track of the Wolf. Are things really so crazy down there that unusual muzzleloader parts are that difficult to get? Or is that configuration strictly a custom order item?
Doubt that any of the current Canadian barrel makers are set up to produce a barrel that long, with that bore. Barrels being made here are almost exclusively premium rifle barrels. There are the "shorty" 12ga barrels being made, but I have no idea where the blanks are being sourced.
You could get away with a 12ga barrel. Bit smaller than Brown Bess bore size, but not by much.
I do know that smoothbore musket barrels have been successfully made from seamless steel tubing. That might be an option for you.
Use of tubing is a bit controversial. It must be true seamless and not seamless finished. Some tube has a welded seam and is then drawn over a mandrel to smooth out the finish; the seam is not readily apparent, but is still there. True seamless tubing is made by piercing a steel billet, and then drawing it out to the desired OD and ID. From the standpoint of containing the pressures developed in a smoothbore musket barrel, tubing is more than acceptable.
To make a Long Land pattern barrel, you would need a 4 foot blank .75"ID and 1 3/8"/1 1/2" OD. And a couple or three hours of lathe time.
Longest barrel I made was 48", .75 caliber, tapered octagon to round. Proof tested it with 150gr of powder and 3oz of shot. I know of one India Pattern barrel made from tubing that was tested with 700gr and 7 balls, without any evidence of stress or strain.
You could get away with a 12ga barrel. Bit smaller than Brown Bess bore size, but not by much.
I do know that smoothbore musket barrels have been successfully made from seamless steel tubing. That might be an option for you.
Use of tubing is a bit controversial. It must be true seamless and not seamless finished. Some tube has a welded seam and is then drawn over a mandrel to smooth out the finish; the seam is not readily apparent, but is still there. True seamless tubing is made by piercing a steel billet, and then drawing it out to the desired OD and ID. From the standpoint of containing the pressures developed in a smoothbore musket barrel, tubing is more than acceptable.
To make a Long Land pattern barrel, you would need a 4 foot blank .75"ID and 1 3/8"/1 1/2" OD. And a couple or three hours of lathe time.
Longest barrel I made was 48", .75 caliber, tapered octagon to round. Proof tested it with 150gr of powder and 3oz of shot. I know of one India Pattern barrel made from tubing that was tested with 700gr and 7 balls, without any evidence of stress or strain.
if you had a source of a shorter bess barrel you could weld some tubing on at the muzzle. The initial hole would have to be smaller than the finished bore and the OD larger than the finished OD. That would allow you to drill and ream the added piece to the correct dimension and eliminate any irregularities at the transition. Unless you can do the work yourself, the cost would be considerable although probably less than having an entire barrel manufactured in a machine shop
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
I have a barrel sitting in the shop. French M1717 musket barrel, which was shortened ages ago, maybe when it was converted to cap. Years ago, I "stretched" it with another piece of barrel. Turned down the 1717, bored out the other, sleeved them together, and welded the joint. I know there is a joint, but I cannot see it. I have often thought I would ream out the unit, and line it with seamless 4130 tubing, and install a new breechplug, to make a long shootable barrel I would trust. Would be good for an early pattern flint gun, or even a matchlock.
vagrantviking
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
The seamless pipe idea has been in the back of my head for a long time.
Met a fellow at the Western Australian match around 2001 shooting a matchlock he'd made from it. Was a 45 smoothbore that he'd proof tested.
Met a fellow at the Western Australian match around 2001 shooting a matchlock he'd made from it. Was a 45 smoothbore that he'd proof tested.
loyalist arms buys muskets from India then heat treats the barrels when they arrive. After a little research I found their supplier and contacted them. Apparently they can not export parts they can only export an entire musket. Also they refused to deal with me they told me they will only provide to Loyalist Arms. I want to be the first to offer a line of historically accurate muskets made in Canada by materials sourced in Canada if possible. I want to be able to provide the same quality muskets that you can find in the U.S at say track of the wolf or the rifle shoppe, only assembled and ready to go and if possible for less than what an American made musket goes for which I believe is about $1600 Canadian and you have to finish the wood and assemble the musket yourself. So I suppose my only option would be to purchase a lathe capable of producing these barrels and I'll have to check with the CFO to see if there's any regulations regarding the manufacturing barrels that would fall under the antique category. They only lathe I found is from grizzly tools which is 60" and costs about $25,000 Canadian. For now it's a dream. I can have the entire set up to make the rest of the parts for about $5k I'm just missing that lathe.
A chap named Bob Seymour with a shop on North Yonge Street in Toronto was set up to manufacture muskets some 50 years ago. He made the muskets for Old Fort York and other historic sites. He had the dies to have the parts wax cast for Long Land, Short Land, Sea Service and India Pattern Brown Bess muskets. Lock parts and brass furniture were cast in Toronto. Also could supply pans for reconversion projects. These were excellent quality parts.
I do not know what you mean by the India musket barrels being heat treated after arriving in Canada. Stress relieved perhaps?
In the early 70s, I was involved with the manufacture of reproduction Northwest guns. We made the guns for Old Fort William and other sites, some in the US; sold some privately. We had dies for wax casting the various parts at a foundry in Toronto. I machined the barrels from blanks purchased from Numrich Arms; could not obtain blanks in Canada. At least not at a price that was approaching reasonable. These blanks were supplied 1 3/16"OD, 36 1/4" long, drilled and reamed twice to a specified micro inch finish. 1137 steel. I machined them tapered octagon to round on a 16" South Bend lathe, 57" centers, 8' bed, made in 1932. The blank weighed more than the finished gun. A regular machinist's lathe is not a good choice to profile a long round musket barrel with a varying contour. You would want a machine set up turn such a varying profile. I cheated; our barrels were straight tapered from breech to muzzle. I was able to turn the round portion of the barrel using a steady rest with two setups. The octagon flats were milled. As a result they were slightly heavier than original barrels. Barrel machining time was about 2 1/2 hours, including installing the breechplug. Initially used a 12 spindle North Star carving machine to carve the blanks; turned out it was much more efficient to send our aluminum stock pattern to Fajen who carved the stocks for us. The 48" octagon to round musket barrel I mentioned above was for a reproduction of a 17th century fishtail butt matchlock musket that I made. The original which I copied is in the collection of the Royal Ontario Museum. Still have the drawings of that gun which I used to make the reproduction.
That gun was purchased by National Parks and Historic Sites, and is somewhere in Eastern Canada. I'd like to see what it looks like now, with close to 50 years of handling.
Do a web search for Jim Kibler, and watch the videos in which he describes the two patterns of flintlock rifle kits that he is currently producing. Note that he does not show how he is machining barrels and stocks. Proprietary trade procedures that he developed. His investment in his shop is substantial, far beyond the numbers you mention.
There is no requirement to have a license to manufacture gun barrels. A gun barrel is an unregulated part.
I do not know what you mean by the India musket barrels being heat treated after arriving in Canada. Stress relieved perhaps?
In the early 70s, I was involved with the manufacture of reproduction Northwest guns. We made the guns for Old Fort William and other sites, some in the US; sold some privately. We had dies for wax casting the various parts at a foundry in Toronto. I machined the barrels from blanks purchased from Numrich Arms; could not obtain blanks in Canada. At least not at a price that was approaching reasonable. These blanks were supplied 1 3/16"OD, 36 1/4" long, drilled and reamed twice to a specified micro inch finish. 1137 steel. I machined them tapered octagon to round on a 16" South Bend lathe, 57" centers, 8' bed, made in 1932. The blank weighed more than the finished gun. A regular machinist's lathe is not a good choice to profile a long round musket barrel with a varying contour. You would want a machine set up turn such a varying profile. I cheated; our barrels were straight tapered from breech to muzzle. I was able to turn the round portion of the barrel using a steady rest with two setups. The octagon flats were milled. As a result they were slightly heavier than original barrels. Barrel machining time was about 2 1/2 hours, including installing the breechplug. Initially used a 12 spindle North Star carving machine to carve the blanks; turned out it was much more efficient to send our aluminum stock pattern to Fajen who carved the stocks for us. The 48" octagon to round musket barrel I mentioned above was for a reproduction of a 17th century fishtail butt matchlock musket that I made. The original which I copied is in the collection of the Royal Ontario Museum. Still have the drawings of that gun which I used to make the reproduction.
That gun was purchased by National Parks and Historic Sites, and is somewhere in Eastern Canada. I'd like to see what it looks like now, with close to 50 years of handling.
Do a web search for Jim Kibler, and watch the videos in which he describes the two patterns of flintlock rifle kits that he is currently producing. Note that he does not show how he is machining barrels and stocks. Proprietary trade procedures that he developed. His investment in his shop is substantial, far beyond the numbers you mention.
There is no requirement to have a license to manufacture gun barrels. A gun barrel is an unregulated part.
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my understanding of the heat treating process that I was told is they heat the barrel then quench it which is supposed to harden the steel. The lathe that I found from Grizzly is called a gunsmithing lathe from what I can see it will do everything I need it to but I will definitely look at other options. The stocks I'm going to use a 3d router copier I found and I'm going to sand cast the other parts myself from brass and 4140 Ordinance Steel. I'll definitely check out Jim Kibler. That's awesome that you were making muskets for museums and national parks I'd love to hear more about that.
Sand casting produces pieces that need a lot of finishing, compared with precision casting. Precision casting - investment casting - produces a much finer finish. Even then, surface finish depends on how the castings are removed from the investment material. Some processes leave rougher surfaces.
4140 for the steel parts of a musket would not be appropriate. Non-stressed parts can be plain mild steel. 1010/1015 steel. 4140 is not used for parts that require heat treatment like tumblers, springs and frizzens. 6150 is often used for these. Alloy steels must be melted and poured under conditions that will not result in carbon being burned out. If this happens, hardening and tempering become problematic. Mild steels can be surface hardened. Carburized; case hardened. Cheap flintlocks often have case hardened frizzens. Spark for a while before needing work.
Precision cast lock parts require skilled fitting. Sand cast parts would require even more work. And the metallurgy might be unpredictable. Have a good look at Kibler's videos. His flintlocks have precision cast cocks and frizzens. Their complex contours are problematic for machining. The rest of the lock parts are CNC machined. Assembly is easier and predictable, quality control is enhanced. The metal parts fit the CNC precision inletting in the stocks.
Our lock parts were investment cast. Epoxy dies were made using fine original parts as masters. The epoxy dies were used to produce wax patterns, which were set up in ceramic for lost wax casting. Every flaw in the original part is incorporated in the final casting - and there is shrinkage. Machined metal dies produce parts with much greater precision. Dies produced on a CNC machining center should produce excellent castings. Or just forget casting wherever possible, and just CNC machine the parts from solid.
Heating a piece of low carbon steel and quenching it will not harden it. Doing the same with a higher carbon steel will harden it. And leave it brittle. Not good in a barrel. Must be drawn back.
Barrels are stress relieved. Heated under controlled conditions, and allowed to cool slowly. I suspect the Indian barrels are being stress relieved. From everything I have read, the Indian musket barrels are made from tubing.
Want a bit of sticker shock? Price having screws made. If you cannot use screws purchased from stock, and must have them made, the cost will surprise you. A lot of the screws used in antique guns have head profiles and lengths that you will not find in a hardware catalogue. Our top jaw screws cost $1.50 each, almost 50 years ago.
Also consider stock wood. Muskets take long, thick blanks. Walnut is the standard. European walnut would be the standard for Brown Besses. That is going to be problematic from the standpoint of cost and availability. North American black walnut would be the first realistic choice.
I do not think that a 3-D router copy carver is going to cut it, so to speak. You have a very long blank to deal with, and a lot of wood to remove. An industrial grade machine would be needed. Profiling is one thing; precision inletting another.
4140 for the steel parts of a musket would not be appropriate. Non-stressed parts can be plain mild steel. 1010/1015 steel. 4140 is not used for parts that require heat treatment like tumblers, springs and frizzens. 6150 is often used for these. Alloy steels must be melted and poured under conditions that will not result in carbon being burned out. If this happens, hardening and tempering become problematic. Mild steels can be surface hardened. Carburized; case hardened. Cheap flintlocks often have case hardened frizzens. Spark for a while before needing work.
Precision cast lock parts require skilled fitting. Sand cast parts would require even more work. And the metallurgy might be unpredictable. Have a good look at Kibler's videos. His flintlocks have precision cast cocks and frizzens. Their complex contours are problematic for machining. The rest of the lock parts are CNC machined. Assembly is easier and predictable, quality control is enhanced. The metal parts fit the CNC precision inletting in the stocks.
Our lock parts were investment cast. Epoxy dies were made using fine original parts as masters. The epoxy dies were used to produce wax patterns, which were set up in ceramic for lost wax casting. Every flaw in the original part is incorporated in the final casting - and there is shrinkage. Machined metal dies produce parts with much greater precision. Dies produced on a CNC machining center should produce excellent castings. Or just forget casting wherever possible, and just CNC machine the parts from solid.
Heating a piece of low carbon steel and quenching it will not harden it. Doing the same with a higher carbon steel will harden it. And leave it brittle. Not good in a barrel. Must be drawn back.
Barrels are stress relieved. Heated under controlled conditions, and allowed to cool slowly. I suspect the Indian barrels are being stress relieved. From everything I have read, the Indian musket barrels are made from tubing.
Want a bit of sticker shock? Price having screws made. If you cannot use screws purchased from stock, and must have them made, the cost will surprise you. A lot of the screws used in antique guns have head profiles and lengths that you will not find in a hardware catalogue. Our top jaw screws cost $1.50 each, almost 50 years ago.
Also consider stock wood. Muskets take long, thick blanks. Walnut is the standard. European walnut would be the standard for Brown Besses. That is going to be problematic from the standpoint of cost and availability. North American black walnut would be the first realistic choice.
I do not think that a 3-D router copy carver is going to cut it, so to speak. You have a very long blank to deal with, and a lot of wood to remove. An industrial grade machine would be needed. Profiling is one thing; precision inletting another.
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