muzzleloading shotgun question
- Thread starter m1978
- Start date
vagrantviking
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
You can load anything you like in a muzzle loader from super mild to holycrap!
If I were looking to hunt geese I would start by deciding what shot to use. Steel, bismuth or whatever and size. With steel I'd consider BB or maybe even a little bigger. And how much.
Probably look at factory shells for ideas. Oz of shot and dram equivalent could be used as a starting point but testing the pattern at the range will tell you what your gun likes. Can experiment with or without shot cups of stiff paper and different wad combinations.
Hopefully catinthehat and others will chime in. I shoot some ml trap but don't have much 1st hand info on hunting loads.
If I were looking to hunt geese I would start by deciding what shot to use. Steel, bismuth or whatever and size. With steel I'd consider BB or maybe even a little bigger. And how much.
Probably look at factory shells for ideas. Oz of shot and dram equivalent could be used as a starting point but testing the pattern at the range will tell you what your gun likes. Can experiment with or without shot cups of stiff paper and different wad combinations.
Hopefully catinthehat and others will chime in. I shoot some ml trap but don't have much 1st hand info on hunting loads.
Londonshooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
Nontoxic shot for waterfowl is going to be a bit of a challenge to source I would think unless the barrels have little choke and are rated to use steel. Bismuth and ITX are softer than steel shot but tough to find in stock anywhere. Maybe you have that all figured out?
I do not know if the Pedersoli guns are rated for use with steel shot.
You will need to find out, and then load exactly as specified.
I recall one ml shotgun rated for steel. The choke tube had to be removed, so that a shotcup approved for steel could be loaded, and then the choketube replaced.
Non-ferrous, non-toxic shot exists, but might take a bit of searching.
You cannot use lead shot for hunting geese.
You will need to find out, and then load exactly as specified.
I recall one ml shotgun rated for steel. The choke tube had to be removed, so that a shotcup approved for steel could be loaded, and then the choketube replaced.
Non-ferrous, non-toxic shot exists, but might take a bit of searching.
You cannot use lead shot for hunting geese.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
I believe the newer Pedersolis are rated for steel.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Pretty much dependent on the powder and shot load weight as others say here, plus the all up weight of the loaded shotgun.
For example I own two antique ten gauge side by side shotguns that take brass 2 7/8 inch hulls.
They are both north of ten pounds. With 90 grains of FFG Goex and 1 1/2 oz of shot, both are almost pussy cats in the recoil department. Almost.
Stock fit. It's important that the comb drop to be not too much either. Cheek weld too low, you kind of get God-smacked with upper level recoiling loads.
Unless you have a jaw line like Dudley Do-Right!
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
And BTW, you will find out with the 10 bore especially, they seem to 'like' larger bird shot loads.
My #4 bird shot lead is freaking evenly spaced in both my shotguns.
Elmer Keith noted this with his smokeless ten gauge SxS magnum shotgun too.
Slayed geese like crazy back in the day, with his #3 bird shot lead.
Edit: I have seen this typed more than once with ten gauge owners/sellers on gun auction sites while noting best performing bird hunting loads.
Lots of great luck and mention of #2-5 sizing. Toxic and otherwise.
Last edited:
thanks for the replies, the gun has an open cylinder on one side, and improved on the other. i was hoping to use it as an all 'rounder, for big bird and upland game. so brutus, would 71/2 shot be 'no good' you think in a ten? i would go with a twelve, but i figured the extra power would be welcome with black powder and thats why i am leaning towards the ten.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
No sir, I think you yourself with some range experiments can prove otherwise with 7 1/2 shot.
I just wanted to point out that the larger bird shot sizes in the ten, it's very easy to find a good, dense and bigger goose/turkey killing pattern with these larger bore sizes.
Seems that others in the distant lead shot past discovered this too.
Cheers
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
Steel needs to be pushed faster than lead to kill because it is lighter, that is also why modern steel loads generally work better with larger sizes- ie. #6 steel works about like #8 lead
There are more pellets in a 1 1/4once load of steel than lead in the same size of shot as well.
I have never shot steel out of my muzzle loaders for the fact that most are vintage guns, but the one I do have that is a replica, i will shoot Bismuth and Nice Shot out of.
Less recoil because the shot is moving slower.
I have shot lots of waterfowl with vintage guns in both 12 and 10 using # 2 and #4 Bismuth and Nice Shot, reloading is a bit of a pain but it's all fun! LOL!!
Cat
There are more pellets in a 1 1/4once load of steel than lead in the same size of shot as well.
I have never shot steel out of my muzzle loaders for the fact that most are vintage guns, but the one I do have that is a replica, i will shoot Bismuth and Nice Shot out of.
Less recoil because the shot is moving slower.
I have shot lots of waterfowl with vintage guns in both 12 and 10 using # 2 and #4 Bismuth and Nice Shot, reloading is a bit of a pain but it's all fun! LOL!!
Cat
I shoot a pedersoli plains(baker) shotgun,it has back action locks and a single trigger which if both hammers are cocked it will fire the left barrel first then the right or whichever hammer you have cocked one at a time.It is a real nice gun with fixed chokes as if you use removable chokes it can make loading a bit of a pain.I like the single trigger as it makes it a lot easier to use in hunting in the winter time with gloves on.Mine is in 12ga and I heartily recommend one
Stel shot in muzzleloaders
I wrote this in a discussion on another board, so it covers somewhat more than is directly applicable here but I don't have time to rewrite it:
You often hear that steel shot just can't be pushed fast enough to work in muzzleloaders, but some shooters report good results within acceptable range limitations. I've been using bismuth shot for waterfowl and my partners use bismuth or Nice-Shot, but I've been interested in using steel shot in muzzleloaders for a long time, so I've read everything I could find from others shooting it and have done some experimenting of my own. I've come to the conclusion that my 16ga double is somewhat lightly built for success with steel shot, but I can summarize what I've gleaned from my reading. Please forgive me if any of this is belabouring what you already know.
It is generally acknowledged that it is much easier to have success with denser shot at muzzleloading velocities, and you can use bismuth, Nice Shot (Ecotungsten), and (according to several people) ITX Original 10 without any special shot protection. Unfortunately these denser non-toxic shot are all much more expensive than steel shot. Steel shot needs higher velocity than denser shot and it has more limited range, especially in muzzleloaders, and some folks never develop a load that they are comfortable using. Most hunters that report consistent success using steel shot in muzzleloaders are shooting ducks, and sometimes doves and/or "upland" birds in areas where non-toxic shot is required. I've found too few people reporting success with larger birds to generalize about them.
Those successful with ducks and larger upland birds are mostly using #1-#3 size shot, sometimes #4 for teal and other smaller birds or for shorter ranges, and occasionally B or BB through chokes for the largest birds at longer ranges. They are consistently using more powder than the traditional equal-volume starting load for that weight of lead shot, commonly around 1/4-1/3 greater but occasionally up to around 1/2 more. As an example, for a 1.1/4oz lead-shot load, the same volume of powder as shot is about 3dr/82gr, so for steel shot, 1/4 more powder would be 3.3/4dr/103gr (which happens to be the 1.1/4oz-3.3/4dr "heavy field load" cartridge for a choked 12ga), while 1/3 more would be 4dr/109gr, and 1/2 more would be a rather stout 4.5dr/123gr. The same general principles apply for doves but often with somewhat smaller shot charges, and with shot sizes of #4-#6, maybe #7 but I cannot recall for sure. With conventional loads in unchoked muzzleloaders, these heavy powder charges would tend to open or completely blow the patterns, but the plastic shotcups, and especially the stout steel-capable ones, tend to tighten the patterns and compensate for the heavy charges. On the other hand, chokes give very different dynamics in patterning, and can often benefit from higher velocities than cylinder bores. FYI, a volume of powder equal to the steel shot can range from 3/7 to 2/3 more (depending on shot size and measure diameter) than the lead-shot equal-volume load, which would be heavy loads of 4.1/4-5dr/117-137gr in the case of 1.1/4oz of shot. As is often the case, those reporting success with lower velocity loads tend to use larger shot sizes to get adequate penetration.
Steel shot, as well as most of the tungsten-based shot, can easily damage bores and chokes (even chrome plated one) and require the use of thick, strong, leak-proof shot protection. A few shooters use various home-made shotcups or shot cartridges, sometimes with Mylar wraps inside, but most use conventional plastic shotcups/wads, usually the steel- and tungsten-rated ones. If you're not shooting through a forcing cone or choke, *some* wads for lead shot *might* be sufficient by themselves to use with steel shot, but I'd recommend putting a Mylar wrap inside for additional protection. Most shooters use some sort of conventional card and/or fiber/felt wads under the plastic wad to keep the powder gasses away from the plastic, and often will cut the gas seal & cushion section off the plastic wad, just using the shotcup atop the over-powder wad(s). Additionally, most shooters use some sort of lubrication to reduce both plastic and powder fouling, the lube variously swabbed in, applied on/in wads, globbed between wads, or globbed into the cushion section and/or exterior of the plastic wad.
For a firearm in a caliber other than those for which steel-capable wads/shotcups are made, the options for wads depend in part on the specific bore diameter. To take the example of an 11ga (nominally 0.75"), it is possible that 10ga (nominally 0.77") wads might fit. On the Ballistic Products site, there are a variety of 10ga steel wads, and the ones for which they list the diameters range from 0.758-0.765". These were probably for the gas seals, while the bodies are likely a bit less, and trimming the gas seals off might help the fit. Another possibility would be using 12ga (nominally 0.73") wads inside the sort of cloth, heavy paper, or light card-stock 2-petal shotcup (somewhat like the old Alcan shot protector) that some of us use for lead and similarly bore-friendly shot. If there is any doubt about the effectiveness of your shot protection - either for scrub-through or for shot slipping between the petals - you should add a Mylar wrapper inside the shotcup for insurance.
To establish whether a particular load is adequate for a particular use, some shooters feel that a qualitative/visual analysis of multiple fired patterns is adequate. Others prefer pellet counts and numerical analysis. If you want to get technical in analyzing your patterns without counting holes manually, you can use a digital photo of the pattern and the free on-line version of the Shotgun Insight program (http://www.shotguninsight.com/) fairly painlessly. The program can extrapolate the pattern to ranges other than what you fired it at, so you can estimate how far you retain sufficient pellet density. If you don't have ready access to more technical terminal-performance evaluation methods (chronograph; ballistic gel or wet-pack penetration tests), a commonly used rule-of-thumb test is that penetration (by the majority of shot hitting fairly square on) of one side of a steel juice or food can should be adequate for small game and birds up to duck size at that distance, and more than adequate for head/neck shots on turkeys and such; penetration of both sides of the can should be adequate for most geese and similar-sized birds. For this test, I'd recommend that you brace the can against something, because penetration is less consistent if the can is free to recoil.
Muzzleloading smoothbores tend to be limited-range tools in general and steel shot tends to further constrain the range. Unlike with lead and other bore-friendly shot, the requirement for suitable commercial shotcups limits the amount of steel shot that one can use. With traditional muzzleloaders and B.P or substitutes, patterning and recoil (both shooter tolerance and possible damage to the stock) tend to constrain the maximum velocity, and velocity and shot size constrain penetration. Even with larger shot charges from choked barrels, I don't recall anyone mentioning effective ranges greater than 35 or 40 yards, and many, especially with unchoked barrels and/or smaller shot charges, tend to cite maximum consistently-effective ranges around 25 or 30 yards.
A final consideration in effective use of steel shot in muzzleloaders is the change in target lead from the higher velocities. From publications and discussions in the cartridge world, it appears that steel shot must be fired at minimum muzzle velocities greater than 1300fps or maybe somewhat faster for consistent lethality (assuming appropriate shot sizes for the game and distances); how much faster to get their desired maximum ranges is still a subject of much debate. Examination of older load information and other documents suggest that the successful steel-shot loads described above likely have muzzle velocities in the 1300-1330fps range, maybe up to 1350fps. Normal muzzle-loading lead shot loads are usually in the 1000-1150fps range. It has been shown that modern shooters used to firing the common lead-shot cartridge loads in the 1175-1250fps range (although some hunting loads are over 1300fps) need a fair bit of practice shooting with their chosen steel shot velocities (1350-1600+fps) to get used to the reduced leads or they miss much more frequently even at the shorter maximum ranges that we are looking at. This is a matter that I have NEVER seen discussed in muzzleloading contexts. It is quite possible that some folks who disparage steel shot, whether in cartridge guns or muzzle loaders, have tried loads that could have been lethal but their patterns were not consistently centred on the birds.
Naturally, as with all things in muzzleloading, you'll have to experiment to find what load gives the best combination of pattern and penetration in *your* gun with *your* components and *your* loading techniques, and whether that load actually works acceptably for *your* intended usage.
Good luck with all this.
Regards,
Joel
I wrote this in a discussion on another board, so it covers somewhat more than is directly applicable here but I don't have time to rewrite it:
You often hear that steel shot just can't be pushed fast enough to work in muzzleloaders, but some shooters report good results within acceptable range limitations. I've been using bismuth shot for waterfowl and my partners use bismuth or Nice-Shot, but I've been interested in using steel shot in muzzleloaders for a long time, so I've read everything I could find from others shooting it and have done some experimenting of my own. I've come to the conclusion that my 16ga double is somewhat lightly built for success with steel shot, but I can summarize what I've gleaned from my reading. Please forgive me if any of this is belabouring what you already know.
It is generally acknowledged that it is much easier to have success with denser shot at muzzleloading velocities, and you can use bismuth, Nice Shot (Ecotungsten), and (according to several people) ITX Original 10 without any special shot protection. Unfortunately these denser non-toxic shot are all much more expensive than steel shot. Steel shot needs higher velocity than denser shot and it has more limited range, especially in muzzleloaders, and some folks never develop a load that they are comfortable using. Most hunters that report consistent success using steel shot in muzzleloaders are shooting ducks, and sometimes doves and/or "upland" birds in areas where non-toxic shot is required. I've found too few people reporting success with larger birds to generalize about them.
Those successful with ducks and larger upland birds are mostly using #1-#3 size shot, sometimes #4 for teal and other smaller birds or for shorter ranges, and occasionally B or BB through chokes for the largest birds at longer ranges. They are consistently using more powder than the traditional equal-volume starting load for that weight of lead shot, commonly around 1/4-1/3 greater but occasionally up to around 1/2 more. As an example, for a 1.1/4oz lead-shot load, the same volume of powder as shot is about 3dr/82gr, so for steel shot, 1/4 more powder would be 3.3/4dr/103gr (which happens to be the 1.1/4oz-3.3/4dr "heavy field load" cartridge for a choked 12ga), while 1/3 more would be 4dr/109gr, and 1/2 more would be a rather stout 4.5dr/123gr. The same general principles apply for doves but often with somewhat smaller shot charges, and with shot sizes of #4-#6, maybe #7 but I cannot recall for sure. With conventional loads in unchoked muzzleloaders, these heavy powder charges would tend to open or completely blow the patterns, but the plastic shotcups, and especially the stout steel-capable ones, tend to tighten the patterns and compensate for the heavy charges. On the other hand, chokes give very different dynamics in patterning, and can often benefit from higher velocities than cylinder bores. FYI, a volume of powder equal to the steel shot can range from 3/7 to 2/3 more (depending on shot size and measure diameter) than the lead-shot equal-volume load, which would be heavy loads of 4.1/4-5dr/117-137gr in the case of 1.1/4oz of shot. As is often the case, those reporting success with lower velocity loads tend to use larger shot sizes to get adequate penetration.
Steel shot, as well as most of the tungsten-based shot, can easily damage bores and chokes (even chrome plated one) and require the use of thick, strong, leak-proof shot protection. A few shooters use various home-made shotcups or shot cartridges, sometimes with Mylar wraps inside, but most use conventional plastic shotcups/wads, usually the steel- and tungsten-rated ones. If you're not shooting through a forcing cone or choke, *some* wads for lead shot *might* be sufficient by themselves to use with steel shot, but I'd recommend putting a Mylar wrap inside for additional protection. Most shooters use some sort of conventional card and/or fiber/felt wads under the plastic wad to keep the powder gasses away from the plastic, and often will cut the gas seal & cushion section off the plastic wad, just using the shotcup atop the over-powder wad(s). Additionally, most shooters use some sort of lubrication to reduce both plastic and powder fouling, the lube variously swabbed in, applied on/in wads, globbed between wads, or globbed into the cushion section and/or exterior of the plastic wad.
For a firearm in a caliber other than those for which steel-capable wads/shotcups are made, the options for wads depend in part on the specific bore diameter. To take the example of an 11ga (nominally 0.75"), it is possible that 10ga (nominally 0.77") wads might fit. On the Ballistic Products site, there are a variety of 10ga steel wads, and the ones for which they list the diameters range from 0.758-0.765". These were probably for the gas seals, while the bodies are likely a bit less, and trimming the gas seals off might help the fit. Another possibility would be using 12ga (nominally 0.73") wads inside the sort of cloth, heavy paper, or light card-stock 2-petal shotcup (somewhat like the old Alcan shot protector) that some of us use for lead and similarly bore-friendly shot. If there is any doubt about the effectiveness of your shot protection - either for scrub-through or for shot slipping between the petals - you should add a Mylar wrapper inside the shotcup for insurance.
To establish whether a particular load is adequate for a particular use, some shooters feel that a qualitative/visual analysis of multiple fired patterns is adequate. Others prefer pellet counts and numerical analysis. If you want to get technical in analyzing your patterns without counting holes manually, you can use a digital photo of the pattern and the free on-line version of the Shotgun Insight program (http://www.shotguninsight.com/) fairly painlessly. The program can extrapolate the pattern to ranges other than what you fired it at, so you can estimate how far you retain sufficient pellet density. If you don't have ready access to more technical terminal-performance evaluation methods (chronograph; ballistic gel or wet-pack penetration tests), a commonly used rule-of-thumb test is that penetration (by the majority of shot hitting fairly square on) of one side of a steel juice or food can should be adequate for small game and birds up to duck size at that distance, and more than adequate for head/neck shots on turkeys and such; penetration of both sides of the can should be adequate for most geese and similar-sized birds. For this test, I'd recommend that you brace the can against something, because penetration is less consistent if the can is free to recoil.
Muzzleloading smoothbores tend to be limited-range tools in general and steel shot tends to further constrain the range. Unlike with lead and other bore-friendly shot, the requirement for suitable commercial shotcups limits the amount of steel shot that one can use. With traditional muzzleloaders and B.P or substitutes, patterning and recoil (both shooter tolerance and possible damage to the stock) tend to constrain the maximum velocity, and velocity and shot size constrain penetration. Even with larger shot charges from choked barrels, I don't recall anyone mentioning effective ranges greater than 35 or 40 yards, and many, especially with unchoked barrels and/or smaller shot charges, tend to cite maximum consistently-effective ranges around 25 or 30 yards.
A final consideration in effective use of steel shot in muzzleloaders is the change in target lead from the higher velocities. From publications and discussions in the cartridge world, it appears that steel shot must be fired at minimum muzzle velocities greater than 1300fps or maybe somewhat faster for consistent lethality (assuming appropriate shot sizes for the game and distances); how much faster to get their desired maximum ranges is still a subject of much debate. Examination of older load information and other documents suggest that the successful steel-shot loads described above likely have muzzle velocities in the 1300-1330fps range, maybe up to 1350fps. Normal muzzle-loading lead shot loads are usually in the 1000-1150fps range. It has been shown that modern shooters used to firing the common lead-shot cartridge loads in the 1175-1250fps range (although some hunting loads are over 1300fps) need a fair bit of practice shooting with their chosen steel shot velocities (1350-1600+fps) to get used to the reduced leads or they miss much more frequently even at the shorter maximum ranges that we are looking at. This is a matter that I have NEVER seen discussed in muzzleloading contexts. It is quite possible that some folks who disparage steel shot, whether in cartridge guns or muzzle loaders, have tried loads that could have been lethal but their patterns were not consistently centred on the birds.
Naturally, as with all things in muzzleloading, you'll have to experiment to find what load gives the best combination of pattern and penetration in *your* gun with *your* components and *your* loading techniques, and whether that load actually works acceptably for *your* intended usage.
Good luck with all this.
Regards,
Joel
