My fault? Webley barrel catch

[braun]

I have a MkII with a MkVI barrel. It locked up fairly tight last year but over the winter it's developed a bit of play...strange considering I haven't shot it since August (250gr .454 bullet, .900" case, 6gr unique). When I push down on the barrel catch it tightens up so I'm assuming that the barrel catch screw is the culprit and that it slowly rotated to its loosest position as I handled the revolver over the winter. The load certainly didn't feel excessively powerful (comparable to the Fiocchi .455) and the cases looked fine, no flattened primers or other signs of high pressure. Any comments welcome.

Anybody know where I can find a replacement screw? Numrich has it listed but not in stock and Apex doesn't seem to ship to Canada...

Does anyone have experience making a screw?

 

[jethunter]

Before you do anything else, try tightening the hinge screw. If it has worked itself loose it will cause slop in the hinge and latch.

What cartridge were you using?? Your load is plenty warm. Quickload predicts it will produce approx 22-24,000 psi in a .455 MKII case; and in the 45acp approx 18-20,000 psi or roughly equivalant to +P 45 acp pressure levels. Actual pressure may be more or less dependant on bullet seating depth, bullet hardness, throat and bore dimensions, etc.

The revolver you are using was originally designed for a cartridge that has a maximum pressure of 13,000 psi. The MKI/II/III .455 Webley service revolvers had quite soft frames and are susceptible to damage if they are overloaded. Looseness in the hinge and bent latch screws are signs of excessive loads.

You can't estimte pressure levels by "feel" or primer condition in these low pressure catridges and revolvers. "Feel" is simply recoil, and recoil is directly related to velocity but does not tell you much about pressure. The lack of flattened primers isn't a useful sign of safe pressure levels in these low pressure antique catridges, either. By the time you start seeing flattened primers you may have exceeded maximum pressure by several times over.

I have had some success straightening bent pins. You need vise grips or a vise, brass punch, small ball pein hammer, and a good eye.

 

[tokguy]

No expert but 6 gr of Unique is a pretty stiff load IMO

 

[braun]

Thanks for the info - I'll try tightening the screw tonight.. I'm using .45 Schofield cases, with the rims thinned and the length shortened to 0.9". I don't remember what the bullet seating depth was but the bullets were 250gr SWC .454 using 40:1 lead. I was aiming for the Webley MKI cartridge velocities, about 700fps or so....and I figured the extra case length would be a bit of insurance.

I chose 6gr of Unique based on the advice of a couple forum regulars who are well-respected and seem to know their stuff; one guy told me to WORK UP from 6gr... Obviously it's good to get other opinions!

 

[cantom]

No expert but 6 gr of Unique is a pretty stiff load IMO

Agreed, way too hot for a Mk II. 4-5 grains of Unique is more in the right range.

The pressures Jethunter mentioned you are developing are dangerous to you and your gun.

You've likely bent the barrel catch screw. (Dingus has said that's the first thing to give)

I've thought more than once that someone should get someone like Evans Obsolete screws or a machinist to make up some new, harder screws. But don't use that as a way to exceed the original 13,000 psi safe pressure levels, just as a way to get some better grade screws with modern steels.

 

[braun]

Agreed, way too hot for a Mk II. 4-5 grains of Unique is more in the right range.

The pressures Jethunter mentioned you are developing are dangerous to you and your gun.

You've likely bent the barrel catch screw. (Dingus has said that's the first thing to give)

.

Right, all of the loading data I've found suggests 4.5-5gr of Unique in the MKII cartridge to reach the factory velocity. However, For the longer case that I'm using (0.900" versus 0.760" for the MkII) I should be able to increase the powder charge while keeping the pressure the same, right?

When I reloaded for my WG I used full-length schofield cases and 5 grains of unique with 220gr bullets and got about 400 fps (according to my crappy chrony); the pressure was quite low, judging by the black residue on the case exteriors. To me this says that for a case length in between the Schofield and the MKII, I will certainly need to exceed 5gr Unique in order to get the same performance as the MkII cartridge. Am I wrong on this?

EDIT - ok, I've gone back through my subscribed threads and found this from JetHunter:

"The larger case capacity will produce higher velocity at the same pressure (or lower pressure at the same velocity) compared to a smaller capacity cases. For instance, Quickload program estimates that if both cartridges are loaded with Unique to 12,000 psi the .45 S&W will produce 75-100 fps higher velocity than the .455. Granted, the .45 will take a couple grains more powder to reach that pressure but it's a good tradeoff IMO."

So, with all other things being equal, does 6gr really create that much more pressure? I'm not trying to protect myself against cougars or create a grenade here, just a reasonably accurate load with the longer cases.

 

[Clotho]

Higher velocity does not equal greater accuracy. The gun is 120 years old. You have already damaged it. I would be looking at some very mild loads if I were you. In fact I would probably switch to black powder and original sized cases and hope that I hadn't hurt her too badly. You might be surprised at how accurate BP is. My best smokeless loads are often close but not quite as accurate as an original BP load.

Have you slugged the bore to verify the diameter? Improperly sized projectiles can create problems with pressure and accuracy as well.

 

[antiqueguy]

yep id back off on the charge i would nto care much on velocity.

these are black powder frames even though they have been upgraded with a newer barrel and cylinder like yours id still stay away from the load you are using heck with the webely black powder clean up should be some what easy

 

[dingus]

Sounds like the latch screw is bent. they can and do bend mainly the 45 acp ones where hotter 900 Fps ammo is shot in them over time the screws bend.
I shoot 6 grs of unique in my Upgraded MKI** but its reamed to use 45 schofield case with 452 dia bullets as webley bores are like .451 or .452 useing a smaller bullet like i do gets rid of alot of excess pressure ive had 0 problems with bent screws im useing bigger 45 schofield cases to tho.
Try getting a MKVI Latch screw or have one made up. I also shoot 6 grs of Trail boss with the same 45 sch case and a 250 gr SWC Softer lead bullet sized .452
its posible the orignal screw was even bent slightly and the 6 gr unique load turned the screw if you turn the screw 180 degrees and the gun tightens up its bent.
I only shoot 6 gr unique loads in my MKI** 45 schofield as the case is bigger the MKV cylinder has thicker chamber walls than a regular MKI and the only weak point on the up graded guns is the latch screw and useing .452 swc soft lead bullets helps to.
A MKVI screw should be made of much better steel than a MKI latch screw.
If you replace the screw go to a .452 SWC Dia softer lead bullet you wont have any prroblems ive shoot hunderds of rounds thru my upgraded guns . if you can mark the bullet with your thumb nail its soft enough. i dont use to soft a bullets either no pure lead or anything that soft.

The above loads im only useing in UPGRADED MKI**S or MKII **S Not regular Webley MKI or MKII
Not much point in buying and upgraded gun if you cant load her up abit eh. I do and am not seeing any issiues at all in my keeper MKI** and MKII**

One thing if you make the scews to hard the Latch bottom on the right hand side will or could break the screws are a good gage as to your loadings and how hot they are. if your bending good quality screws the loads are to hot. but start with a new strait screw.
Try and get a MKVI latch screw if posible.
if its a good strait one it should solve your trobles and use the right dia bullets they shoot more accurate than the 455 ones anyway SWC bullets cut full caliber holes in stuff and are much better for bush guns than RNHB bullets. any good machinist can make you a good new latch screw of a good quality steel thats not to to hard.

 

[Clotho]

Sounds like the latch screw is bent. they can and do bend mainly the 45 acp ones where hotter 900 Fps ammo is shot in them over time the screws bend.
I shoot 6 grs of unique in my Upgraded MKI** but its reamed to use 45 schofield case with 452 dia bullets as webley bores are like .451 or .452 useing a smaller bullet like i do gets rid of alot of excess pressure ive had 0 problems with bent screws im useing bigger 45 schofield cases to tho.
Try getting a MKVI Latch screw or have one made up. I also shoot 6 grs of Trail boss with the same 45 sch case and a 250 gr SWC Softer lead bullet sized .452
its posible the orignal screw was even bent slightly and the 6 gr unique load turned the screw if you turn the screw 180 degrees and the gun tightens up its bent.
I only shoot 6 gr unique loads in my MKI** 45 schofield as the case is bigger the MKV cylinder has thicker chamber walls than a regular MKI and the only weak point on the up graded guns is the latch screw and useing .452 swc soft lead bullets helps to.
A MKVI screw should be made of much better steel than a MKI latch screw.
If you replace the screw go to a .452 SWC Dia softer lead bullet you wont have any prroblems ive shoot hunderds of rounds thru my upgraded guns . if you can mark the bullet with your thumb nail its soft enough. i dont use to soft a bullets either no pure lead or anything that soft.

The above loads im only useing in UPGRADED MKI**S or MKII **S Not regular Webley MKI or MKII
Not much point in buying and upgraded gun if you cant load her up abit eh. I do and am not seeing any issiues at all in my keeper MKI** and MKII**

One thing if you make the scews to hard the Latch bottom on the right hand side will or could break the screws are a good gage as to your loadings and how hot they are. if your bending good quality screws the loads are to hot. but start with a new strait screw.
Try and get a MKVI latch screw if posible.
if its a good strait one it should solve your trobles and use the right dia bullets they shoot more accurate than the 455 ones anyway SWC bullets cut full caliber holes in stuff and are much better for bush guns than RNHB bullets. any good machinist can make you a good new latch screw of a good quality steel thats not to to hard.

I am not convinced that it is wise to be offering advice like this. I understand the caveat you provided but my experience with end-users tells me that a certain percentage of people are going to read what you wrote and leave thinking that they can use 6grn of Unique in any Webley. Also, their gun is not your gun and they do not have the years of experience that you do. While you or I would take the necessary precautions of slugging the barrel and inspecting for flaws and imperfections many would not or wouldn't recognize a problem even if they saw it. People tend to take shortcuts by nature and unfortunately this is one hobby where that is ill advised.

Hot-rodding an antique is just going to shorten its life and increase risk. I have experience hot rodding everything from tools to computers to anything with an engine. The toys with the biggest fun factor are always built on the strongest platform available, not the weakest.

 

[dingus]

No one is hot rodding anything Im my case i just had the chamber and cylinder altered so it could use a un altered 45 schofield case and theres no hot schofield ammo around to worry about getting in the gun.
theses guns are upgraded by the webley factory in 1914 so they could handle the more powerfull smokeless ammo used in 1914 forward. two of mine are stamped 1914
If they were not able to handle factory 455 domion MKI and 45 acp they would not still be around.
If someone just re loads willy nilly without reading and entire post about upgraded Webleys then there asking for troble. theres posts about 2400 smokeless loads in webleys to again READING everything you can on the subject is important no doubt i wouldnt think a person would even need to say that.
All im doing is letting the orignal poster know that upgraded MKI**s and MKII** can indeed handle his load if its done right and a good quality strait latch screw should not bend with that load if its done right with the correct dia bullets.

A factory Domion 455 MKI cartridge has a good thump to it and is used in the upgraded MKI** and MKII**s im sure the webley factory knew what there guns could handle or why would they do the upgrades.
They were done to theses guns in 1914 and alot were used in WWI. there just MKI and MKIIs but with MKV or MKVI Barrels and cylinders installed. the cylinders are thicker walled than regular MKI or MKII or MKIII
Not alot of Black powder ammo was shot in WWI and most MKI** were also shaved to 45 acp tho i do have one in orignal 455 that shoots the Factory Domion 455 MKI ammo anyone who shoots that stuff knows what a kick it has.
ALL MY POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE ABOUT UPGRADED MKI** AND MKII** WEBLEYs

 

[scianna54]

Maybe you bought a gun here on CGN with an altered/self made latch spring, be careful. In regards to some comments and having about 100 Webley MK1/Mk2/Mk3 and on going through my hands, I have yet to see one with a bent latch screw. I am not sure who started that myth but it is what it is. Webleys are very strong guns, you don't need a MK1** or even an upgraded MK to IV specs - more important is the use of the gun and the stress done to it - you can shoot those guns with medium loads of about 4.5 grains of Unique all day long. The key is the bullet anyway, not the load, anybody tell you different is just trying to sell you something expensive. Check out jethunters bullets and his manstopper which can be shot in a normal MK1, much more effective than a lets say MK 4 converted MK*** and a normal Wolff round nose lead bullet as recommend here a few times. What do you think a full lead bullet can do anyways.

 

[Clotho]

No one is hot rodding anything Im my case i just had the chamber and cylinder altered so it could use a un altered 45 schofield case and theres no hot schofield ammo around to worry about getting in the gun.
theses guns are upgraded by the webley factory in 1914 so they could handle the more powerfull smokeless ammo used in 1914 forward. two of mine are stamped 1914
If they were not able to handle factory 455 domion MKI and 45 acp they would not still be around.
If someone just re loads willy nilly without reading and entire post about upgraded Webleys then there asking for troble. theres posts about 2400 smokeless loads in webleys to again READING everything you can on the subject is important no doubt i wouldnt think a person would even need to say that.
All im doing is letting the orignal poster know that upgraded MKI**s and MKII** can indeed handle his load if its done right and a good quality strait latch screw should not bend with that load if its done right with the correct dia bullets.

A factory Domion 455 MKI cartridge has a good thump to it and is used in the upgraded MKI** and MKII**s im sure the webley factory knew what there guns could handle or why would they do the upgrades.
They were done to theses guns in 1914 and alot were used in WWI. there just MKI and MKIIs but with MKV or MKVI Barrels and cylinders installed. the cylinders are thicker walled than regular MKI or MKII or MKIII
Not alot of Black powder ammo was shot in WWI and most MKI** were also shaved to 45 acp tho i do have one in orignal 455 that shoots the Factory Domion 455 MKI ammo anyone who shoots that stuff knows what a kick it has.
ALL MY POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE ABOUT UPGRADED MKI** AND MKII** WEBLEYs

I like the red text. Perhaps a standard disclaimer would be a good idea as well. Maybe we can come up with one we can all use.

I always enjoy reading the posts of those with experience. I don't want to discourage the sharing of information. I was trying to point out the difference between how information is presented and how it is received. We both know that you worked up to that 6grn load for your revolver. Others take it as gospel and use that as their starting point then wonder why their gun is bent. This is human nature.

The key is the bullet anyway, not the load, ... What do you think a full lead bullet can do anyways.

Bingo! Proper size comes first and is often different from one antique to another of the same type. Bullet type is important too. Heeled and hollow base make a difference. Keep the load under what it was designed for and be thankful it isn't made of polymer because it is 120 years old.

The fun is in figuring out the most accurate load. It often isn't the most powerful one.

 

[braun]

Thanks for all the responses, some good points here.

I'd like to point out that I worked up this load starting from 5gr up to 6gr in .1 grain increments, weighing out the powder charges using a digital scale with a 1mg accuracy. Slow, but I'm in no rush. At 5.3gr the cases stopped getting soot on their exteriors; to me, and according to what I've read in reloading manuals and online, this is a minimum load for my gun where the pressure is just high enough to seal the case. I'm no expert but I'm happy to learn as I go and proceed carefully. My Webley comes out four or five times a year, and this process has taken over two years; as I said, I'm in no rush - it's part of the fun after all. And as I've said before, I'm not interested in power, but I would like to imitate the power/velocity of the Webley MkI cartridge in a longer case, using smokeless powder (although I might give BP a try). As Dingus points out, and as I've read in various Webley books, this is well within the specs of certain Webley revolvers and using smokeless MKI cartridges wasn't just a wartime expediency.

I have to say I find it more interesting to talk/listen about the catch screw and how it functions/fails, and the pressures of various charges in various cases than I am in talking about the foolishness of inexperience; this topic has been discussed many, many times here. Surely the people you're referring to wouldn't read it anyway?

 

[jethunter]

Thanks for the info - I'll try tightening the screw tonight.. I'm using .45 Schofield cases, with the rims thinned and the length shortened to 0.9". I don't remember what the bullet seating depth was but the bullets were 250gr SWC .454 using 40:1 lead. I was aiming for the Webley MKI cartridge velocities, about 700fps or so....and I figured the extra case length would be a bit of insurance.

I chose 6gr of Unique based on the advice of a couple forum regulars who are well-respected and seem to know their stuff; one guy told me to WORK UP from 6gr... Obviously it's good to get other opinions!

Sorry i didn't respond sooner, been working. You were correct that using the bigger case produces lower pressures. 6 gr Unique is not a hot load in a full size .45 S&W Schofield case, but you aren't using a full size Schofield case. Trimming the brass to 0.9" has made it the same length and powder capacity as 45acp and it will generate the same pressures as 45 acp brass. It is a definite improvement over .455 MKII brass, but still quite hot for that frame.