My Lead Smelting Setup
- Thread starter Andy
- Start date
Andy's smelt process
Andy: You may well be correct that the tin doesn't separate easily and fluxing can be omitted for that purpose. I've seen it stated both pro and con. It does help clean the melt though. I use a perforated ladle initially when removing the clips, etc. Submerge the ladle until it is as hot as the melt and when you lift it out full of clips the melt will run through the perforated ladle. Once all the large stuff is gone I do a dirt skim for any that is left on the surface. I get virtually no melt on the removed clips.
Best
Andy: You may well be correct that the tin doesn't separate easily and fluxing can be omitted for that purpose. I've seen it stated both pro and con. It does help clean the melt though. I use a perforated ladle initially when removing the clips, etc. Submerge the ladle until it is as hot as the melt and when you lift it out full of clips the melt will run through the perforated ladle. Once all the large stuff is gone I do a dirt skim for any that is left on the surface. I get virtually no melt on the removed clips.
Best
A great flux to use for those who use bottom pour pots....unscented cat litter(new not used), cover the surface with it and you can add metal as you go because it just drops through, it prevents the outside air from getting to your alloy and you get very little dross, which comes out with the cat litter when you're finished.
scottshotz said:
Whoever told you that doesn't know their arse from a hole in the ground!
Go ahead and cast your scuba weights. Been doing it for years, as well as casting bullets...LEGALLY! Think about it, if casting was illegal would Wholesale Sports or SIR be selling lead furnances or bullet moulds??? C'mon!
Rather a long time ago, I read that lead melting and casting were perfectly legal; however lead smelting and alloying operations required a permit.
I'm googling around and can't seem to find a referance. If I find something, I'll post back.
I'm googling around and can't seem to find a referance. If I find something, I'll post back.
Andy is correct. Fluxing does absolutely nothing to the tin (and antimony, and every other metal) in the lead alloy. Alloys are solutions, no different than suger or salt dissolved in water. There is no density differential at work here, and the flux is certainly not causing an electrochemical process to bring the metals out of solution with the lead.stocker said:
I have also heard pro and con from casters, but you will be hard pressed indeed to find any metallurgist who will agree with the idea that fluxing a lead alloy separates the tin, arsenic, etc from the lead.
The sole reason for fluxing is what you've identified - cleaning the melt of dirt and dross. Dirt is obvious. Dross is a non-chemical mixture of metal and metal oxides. Fluxing separates the metal oxides from the metal, unbinding the metal to return to the rest of the melt, and surfacing the oxides for their removal. Most of us, according to the metallurgists, don't use enough flux. For flux to work properly and effectively, it must be in contact with the melt for some time, and the pot vigorously stirred to bring the dirt and dross in contact with the flux so it can do it's thing. We're talking about a minute or longer with a layer of molten flux sitting on top of the melt while you vigorously stir the pot to bring the dirt and dross down in the melt up to the surface to contact the flux so it can do its' thing.
- Location
- New Brunswick
smelting legal?
I believe someone was convicted of smelting (making bullets) without a license somewhere in western Canada a few years ago. Perhaps it was because he was doing it commercially as a part of his buisness.
I believe someone was convicted of smelting (making bullets) without a license somewhere in western Canada a few years ago. Perhaps it was because he was doing it commercially as a part of his buisness.
Fluxing
Rick; I phrased that rather badly. It reads as if the intent was to separate the tin rather than the opposite of ensuring it's staying there which it appears it has no needed purpose to begin with. Cleaning is for sure the best reason to flux and I stir and scrape the pot for as long as the flux is active, repeatedly in big melts. On re-melt in my casting pot I usually have mirror bright metal and the lack of dirt/slag inclusions in any of my bullets is what I aim for. Kitty litter on top of the casting pot melt does reduce or eliminate oxidization for bottom pourers use as previously mentioned.
Rick; I phrased that rather badly. It reads as if the intent was to separate the tin rather than the opposite of ensuring it's staying there which it appears it has no needed purpose to begin with. Cleaning is for sure the best reason to flux and I stir and scrape the pot for as long as the flux is active, repeatedly in big melts. On re-melt in my casting pot I usually have mirror bright metal and the lack of dirt/slag inclusions in any of my bullets is what I aim for. Kitty litter on top of the casting pot melt does reduce or eliminate oxidization for bottom pourers use as previously mentioned.
I have never bothered to try the kitty litter trick nor the boric acid equivilent. I have not seen enough problems in my current casting setup to see the need for it. I cast fairly hot, but I just don't see enough oxidation on the surface to make me feel the need to address a problem that I apparently don't have.stocker said:
If I do make a change to my setup, it will be to have a "feeder" pot set up above my Lyman bottom pour, that can be used to preheat melt for transfer into the casting pot. A 20 lb pot can empty fairly quickly, and my thermometer tells me that the amount of melt has a lot of influence on the temperature of the melt. That in turn causes variations in the bullets being cast.
So far, I've been too lazy to make the necessary changes in my casting space to accomodate such a setup.
Didn't I read on one of these recent threads of the last few days a post from someone in Quesnel who made up a large bottom pour pot of sorts for processing wheelweights? I'd like to hear more of that. Once upon a time I had access to the shop at the pulp mill and could have gotten all sorts of really cool setups built out of scrap stainless steel... but now those days are gone... In fact, I have a design in mind...
Rick,
I'm the one with the large bottom pour pot - I just took pictures of recently I could e-mail them to you if you shoot me a PM with your e-mail addy. I also have pics of my ingot molds and my fume hood for my indoor casting set up.
I'm the one with the large bottom pour pot - I just took pictures of recently I could e-mail them to you if you shoot me a PM with your e-mail addy. I also have pics of my ingot molds and my fume hood for my indoor casting set up.
P.S. - you should remove any stick-on wheelweights you encounter and set them aside. They are almost pure lead, and if in sufficient quantity, can dilute the antimony content in your mix. Smelt them separately for your pure lead ingots.
Rendered just over 300 lbs of wheelweight ingots last night and have a few observations:
- this is "Spring Tire Season". Better hit the tire shops in the next two weeks. I'm taking the Jimmy in for spring servicing next week and I will have a recycling bin ready in the back.
- I had acquired about 400 lbs of "raw" wheelweights from three locations. Two accepted my offer of $20 per 5 gal, another insisted I just take it away no charge. The two that accepted the cash had "another guy" who also dropped by and paid, the one that was free also had a guy coming but for free. Two other places had either a contract or an agreement with someone else, so I lost out. 2+ years ago you'd run into places where they had piles they didn't know what to do with - not now. Metal prices are rising and I am stockpiling. I don't mind paying $20 for what ends up as about 150 lbs of ingots.
- "cleanest" lot of wheelweights I've ever smelted. Bone dry, very few rubber nipples, paper etc. (no brake calipers!).
- however, by far the most zinc, and stick-on weights I've ever seen. Also the most large wheelweights. The large and stick-on could be explained by where I got them (one truck place and another that does lots of mag wheels). The zinc just seems to be the way it's going.
- avoiding zinc is too easy. My mix is never more than about 50 degrees over the melting temp for lead (I have a thermometer), so it's well below the meting point of zinc. If you ladle immediately after the fresh batch of added raw wheelweights have separated from the metal, i.e. just after it goes from "slurry" to smooth, the zinc will be floating intact along with the rest of the waste.
- I am always low on pure lead, so I look forward to the stick-on weights which are just that. I separate them to reclaim the pure lead, but also to avoid diluting the antimony and tin in the wheelweight ingots. This batch was problematic - lots of smelly adhesive, and difficult to melt. I'm not altogether sure that they were all pure lead, some floated untouched, so I discarded them. I suspect they might be stick-on zinc. I have segregated the pure lead ingots from last night and will test them for hardness to see if they have the hardness (~BHN 7) of pure lead. When working with reclaimed alloys, you're never sure what you're getting, but the hardness is a good indicator (if ~BHN 7, then pure, or close to pure lead, if ~ BHN 12, then "classic" wheelweights, e.g. lead plus a few points of antimony and some tin) - so far so good.
That's all for now.
- this is "Spring Tire Season". Better hit the tire shops in the next two weeks. I'm taking the Jimmy in for spring servicing next week and I will have a recycling bin ready in the back.
- I had acquired about 400 lbs of "raw" wheelweights from three locations. Two accepted my offer of $20 per 5 gal, another insisted I just take it away no charge. The two that accepted the cash had "another guy" who also dropped by and paid, the one that was free also had a guy coming but for free. Two other places had either a contract or an agreement with someone else, so I lost out. 2+ years ago you'd run into places where they had piles they didn't know what to do with - not now. Metal prices are rising and I am stockpiling. I don't mind paying $20 for what ends up as about 150 lbs of ingots.
- "cleanest" lot of wheelweights I've ever smelted. Bone dry, very few rubber nipples, paper etc. (no brake calipers!).
- however, by far the most zinc, and stick-on weights I've ever seen. Also the most large wheelweights. The large and stick-on could be explained by where I got them (one truck place and another that does lots of mag wheels). The zinc just seems to be the way it's going.
- avoiding zinc is too easy. My mix is never more than about 50 degrees over the melting temp for lead (I have a thermometer), so it's well below the meting point of zinc. If you ladle immediately after the fresh batch of added raw wheelweights have separated from the metal, i.e. just after it goes from "slurry" to smooth, the zinc will be floating intact along with the rest of the waste.
- I am always low on pure lead, so I look forward to the stick-on weights which are just that. I separate them to reclaim the pure lead, but also to avoid diluting the antimony and tin in the wheelweight ingots. This batch was problematic - lots of smelly adhesive, and difficult to melt. I'm not altogether sure that they were all pure lead, some floated untouched, so I discarded them. I suspect they might be stick-on zinc. I have segregated the pure lead ingots from last night and will test them for hardness to see if they have the hardness (~BHN 7) of pure lead. When working with reclaimed alloys, you're never sure what you're getting, but the hardness is a good indicator (if ~BHN 7, then pure, or close to pure lead, if ~ BHN 12, then "classic" wheelweights, e.g. lead plus a few points of antimony and some tin) - so far so good.
That's all for now.
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I also melt linotype lead abtained from a print shop that was getting rid of their lino type press, and pure lead weights used in old casement windows as counterweights that I got from a demolition salvage business.
I use letter stamps to identify the metal, WW = Wheel weights, LT =linotype, PB = pure lead.
3 parts WW to 1 part LT makes good pistol bullets.
I use letter stamps to identify the metal, WW = Wheel weights, LT =linotype, PB = pure lead.
3 parts WW to 1 part LT makes good pistol bullets.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
My linotype is already in ingots thankfully, and reserved for special occasions. That stuff is hard to get now.
My castung setup goes much as above, but I work on a smaller scale, and use a propane stove for heat.
By the way, you forgot to flux
My castung setup goes much as above, but I work on a smaller scale, and use a propane stove for heat.
By the way, you forgot to flux
There is sufficient carbon on the junk that goes in with the wheelweight that additional fluxing at this stage is a waste. I do however flux in the casting pot and see very little "junk" confirming that I'm ok.
Here's a casting myth to bust:
It's nonsense that the tin will come out of solution if you don't flux and/or skim off the dross with too much vigour. The tin is bound with the antimony and lead, and doesn't just float to the surface.
Any shiny stuff attached to the metal parts that are skimmed off is lead/tin/antimony, not just tin - you can't get it all, although I do run some back into the pot, but when you're working up 300 lbs, you don't spend another 25% of your time to get another 5 lbs.
Here's a casting myth to bust:
It's nonsense that the tin will come out of solution if you don't flux and/or skim off the dross with too much vigour. The tin is bound with the antimony and lead, and doesn't just float to the surface.
Any shiny stuff attached to the metal parts that are skimmed off is lead/tin/antimony, not just tin - you can't get it all, although I do run some back into the pot, but when you're working up 300 lbs, you don't spend another 25% of your time to get another 5 lbs.
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- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
I'll go along with you on that, antimony being key to the mix, and there's plenty in WW for my purposes.
I do flux however, to raise the sand like crud that accumulates on the bottom of the pot. Never get it all, but then that's why I make ingots, so I can dump the crud in the bottom of the pot.
A nice clean melt is vital if you want to use a bottom pour pot, that crud will make the spout leak, and even plug it up. I use a ladle, and have at times, just used raw wheelweights straight into the melt It's not a great thing to do, as that sandy crud eventually gets in the ladle, and your bullets.
Cleaning your wheel weights? Ok, but make damn sure they are dry if you decide to add some to the melt later.
Oh, one more thing, melting lead when it's about to rain... not good. Have a pot cover handy.
Did you know squirrels can fly after they walk on the lid of a hot lead pot?
I do flux however, to raise the sand like crud that accumulates on the bottom of the pot. Never get it all, but then that's why I make ingots, so I can dump the crud in the bottom of the pot.
A nice clean melt is vital if you want to use a bottom pour pot, that crud will make the spout leak, and even plug it up. I use a ladle, and have at times, just used raw wheelweights straight into the melt It's not a great thing to do, as that sandy crud eventually gets in the ladle, and your bullets.
Cleaning your wheel weights? Ok, but make damn sure they are dry if you decide to add some to the melt later.
Oh, one more thing, melting lead when it's about to rain... not good. Have a pot cover handy.
Did you know squirrels can fly after they walk on the lid of a hot lead pot?
Yea, I've learned a lot about casting the hard way (by making mistakes) - even today I have two or three burns, and some spilled lead to scrape from the garage floor. 
On the fluxing to keep the tin content up, I could well be mistaken. After posting, I looked around and a few reliable sources state that tin can separate through oxidation (a chemical reaction with the air), and can be skimmed off with the dross. The amount will be very small, but it can happen. I add tin anyways, so it matter little to me, but I need to keep my facts straight. I'll get back with a correction if it turns out to be warranted.
On the fluxing to keep the tin content up, I could well be mistaken. After posting, I looked around and a few reliable sources state that tin can separate through oxidation (a chemical reaction with the air), and can be skimmed off with the dross. The amount will be very small, but it can happen. I add tin anyways, so it matter little to me, but I need to keep my facts straight. I'll get back with a correction if it turns out to be warranted.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Most sources agree that tin does separate to some degree. But, I don't have an issue with it, as the melt I use is never ending, I'm always adding more ingots as needed, and so more tin. I don't add tin by itself, I use straight wheel weights for the hot stuff, or pure lead for the slow stuff.
Now pure, or purish lead, that is hard to come by!
Now pure, or purish lead, that is hard to come by!
