My New 0.312", 0.314" and 0.316" Bullets

[Andy]

Some of you will remember the "Marstar Reloader's Special" 8x63mm Swedish Ammo deal that sold out about 18 months ago. Well I jumped in with both feet and now have thousands of very nice 8mm (0.323") 218gr FMJ Cupro-Nickel bullets to play with. They're great in my 8mm's, but in pondering what to do with my Lee Enfields and Mosin Nagants whose bores go anywhere from 0.311 to 0.316", I thought I'd try sizing them down. I shoot cast, but these bullets are very aerodynamic and are just sitting there. I've sized down 0.338" jacketed to 0.332" for use in my Steyr M95's, so saw no reason whay not to try. It's best to use either a bonded core bullet like the Speer Hot-Cor of a FMJ bullet, so that the danger of a jacket being separated from the lead core and exiting separately (or not all all) is eliminated. The "Doomsday Crowd" says "Don't do it", but I have actually done it and there have been no separations and won't be.

Here's how to do it: Some bullets like the Speer Hot-Cor can be done in one stage from 0.323" to 0.312", but the Swede 218gr FMJ pictured here required at least two stages due to its thick jacket. I used a custom Lee-style push-through in 0.316" for the first stage, followed by off-the-shelf Lee 0.314" and Lee 0.311" (there is a bit of springback and I ended up with 0.3115"). I tried various lubes (important!) and found that Imperial Sizing Wax was inferior to the "Lee Re-Sizing Lubricant" and to the best I've found to date - "Dura Lube" (a high tech synthetic Lube.

The results are below. Note that the original 8mm bullet is lengthened from 1.470" to 1.488", the bearing surface is lengthened and the boattail is less pronounced.

 

[303carbine]

Good job Andy, I have heard that Cupro Nickel leaves a buildup at the muzzle end of Enfields. I imagine it will do the same in the 8mm's too.
Any thoughts????

 

[Andy]

I haven't seem any build up but maybe the high volume users such as the guys with the M1919's have. I heard that was a problem 100 years ago, but I think that today's bore cleaners take care of that. I use solvents with copper remover (usually ammonia), and it seems to scrub the bore clean.

To be honest, I don't know the exact composition of the jacket. It is almost certainly cupronickel as I've been told and probably about 60% copper/40% nickel. Cupronickel is a bit harder than today's bullet jackets which are mostly copper with some zinc and tin added. It is also a bit more expensive to produce, so I suppose you don't see it in use today because of the slightly faster bore wear I assume you'd see, and the higher cost.

 

[Andy]

Correction - those 8mm 218gr bullets pulled from the Marstar 8x63 ammo are not Cupro-Nickle jacketed. They are nickel-plated steel.

They:

- are magnetic (but so is nickel). Worthy of note is that nickel alloys lose most of their ability to be attracted to a magnet when the nickel component drops below about the 60% level. I tried this with Canadian nickels of various vintages whose nickel content varied from almost pure to below 60%;
- give off a distinct steel spark pattern when ground against a grinding wheel; and
- develop rust when exposed to water (the clincher).

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

I've shaken hands with Andy, so when I first saw the thread that he was resizing bullets by hand, I was sure he was SQUEEZING them in those mitts of his. It is a relief to know he is using tools, and my digits are safe from harm.

 

[johnone]

ANDY;
Nice job, happy to see creative people at work.... If you can't buy it, make it yourself....

We have nver experienced any metal fouling with these bullets, we have fired close to 100,000 rds both semi and full auto....

John

 

[Andy]

.....We have nver experienced any metal fouling with these bullets, we have fired close to 100,000 rds both semi and full auto....

John

I'm way behind you - only a few hundred (so far). No fouling seen here either. Very nice bullets. The Ballistic Coefficient (BC) is approximately 0.550.

 

[buckbrush]

have you shot any of these in a .303 Andy?

 

[pilgrim]

nice.....would like to know how they fly after resizing

 

[Andy]

have you shot any of these in a .303 Andy?

Only 10! (out of an Enfield P14). They shot well, but that was not enough shooting to be definitive.

The Hornady 174gr HPBT that I got from Mysticplayer shoot so well that I have yet to really try the sized down bullets out. Those Hornady bullets shoot very well in my Mosin Sniper as well, but they both have 0.312" bores which are the same as the Hornady bullet. If they were larger, such as 0.315" like I've seen, that's where the sized down 218 gr bullet might shine as an alternative to custom-sized cast bullets.

The point of my exercise was not to produce inexpensive 0.312" bullets, it was to produce bullets larger than that in an odd size, that also happened to be inexpensive. I wanted to do some more work on sizing down jacketed bullets at the same time.

 

[jamesharrison]

Andy:

I use Lee liquid alox, let dry & then resize. Best & easiest lube I've found. Then just rinse the works in Varsol to clean them off. I've resized 8mm to 0.314" for the odd oversize Lee Speed, as well as 9.3mm to .358" & .338" to .330" for .318 Westley Richards, all in custom size Lee push-through dies like you.

I thought about buying 1,000 of that 8mm ammunition, just to get the components, but procrastinated & POOF!, they were gone.

 

[p-17]

Sorry for double post.

 

[p-17]

This is a standard question that those of us who shoot old .303s always ask -- particularly those of us who shoot P14s. Is it feasible to draw down a commonly available 8mm bullet to .314 while maintaining the ballistic shape AND maintaining core/jacket tension such that the resulting bullet will be both accurate and reliable for hunting? If so, how does one go about doing it?

Over the years, a number of us have tried different things. For example, I've used the simple Lee cast bullet sizer in .309 (along with the free bullet sizing lube included) to squeeze down jacketed Hornady .312 spitzer bullets intended for the .303 into perfectly nice, concentric .309 bullets. I ran these bullets through a .30-06 with a slightly larger bore, and they worked great.

I know that Lee makes a similar sizer in .314. Can you draw down a .323 bullet with this die in one pass? If not, what about .323 to .319, followed by the .314?

The reason for wanting to do this is obvious. I have found that the most accurate .303 ammo I have ever fired is Belgian-made stuff from the 1980s. Out of my P14, with iron sights, I can literally get three shots cutting each other on the paper at 200 metres. When I pulled a cartridge apart, one thing jumped out at me: the bullet miked .314. I have no doubt that the powder was excellent, as was the brass, but I attribute the diameter of that bullet as the main factor in the accuracy of that cartridge. I have no doubt that a Hornady or Nosler bullet in .314 would give unbelievable results out of a P14 or any of the old military .303s.

 

[coreyd]

5 years later...

 

[Andy]

This is a standard question that those of us who shoot old .303s always ask -- particularly those of us who shoot P14s. Is it feasible to draw down a commonly available 8mm bullet to .314 while maintaining the ballistic shape AND maintaining core/jacket tension such that the resulting bullet will be both accurate and reliable for hunting? If so, how does one go about doing it?

Over the years, a number of us have tried different things. For example, I've used the simple Lee cast bullet sizer in .309 (along with the free bullet sizing lube included) to squeeze down jacketed Hornady .312 spitzer bullets intended for the .303 into perfectly nice, concentric .309 bullets. I ran these bullets through a .30-06 with a slightly larger bore, and they worked great.

I know that Lee makes a similar sizer in .314. Can you draw down a .323 bullet with this die in one pass? If not, what about .323 to .319, followed by the .314?

The reason for wanting to do this is obvious. I have found that the most accurate .303 ammo I have ever fired is Belgian-made stuff from the 1980s. Out of my P14, with iron sights, I can literally get three shots cutting each other on the paper at 200 metres. When I pulled a cartridge apart, one thing jumped out at me: the bullet miked .314. I have no doubt that the powder was excellent, as was the brass, but I attribute the diameter of that bullet as the main factor in the accuracy of that cartridge. I have no doubt that a Hornady or Nosler bullet in .314 would give unbelievable results out of a P14 or any of the old military .303s.

It does change the profile and it could affect the way the bullet behaves, but for the few I've tried (Speer Hot-Cor and the pulled Swedish), I saw no change (pulled bullets out of the sand berm and examined them).

I "used a custom Lee-style push-through in 0.316" for the first stage, followed by off-the-shelf Lee 0.314" and Lee 0.311" (there is a bit of springback and I ended up with 0.3115")." as I found that trying to go directly from 0.323" to 0.314" was too much. I suggest an intermediate stage, and 0.318" would be about perfect. You can size down in stages by screwing the sizer in a half turn for each pull until it's sized.

You could use an "O" sized drill, or better yet chucking reamer to open a Lee 0.314" to 0.316".

 

[bearhunter]

I remember when Andy first started this thread. I had just received ten thousand rounds of this ammo and the first thing I did, was order a reamer, re cut the chamber of a K98 barrel that I had on had to accept it and install it into one of the milsurp 98s that had been converted to 30-06 after WWII by Belgium. This made life easier for me. I had visions of recreating one of the K98s that were made up by Sweden for issue to their machine gun crews, whose main weapons were chambered for the 8x63. Most of those K98s were sold to Israel and were converted to a more commonly available cartridge.

The receiver I used had already been D&T and a Timney trigger had been installed and adjusted to a two pound pull. I also had a cut down K98 laminated stock on hand that had the inletting around the mag well already altered. IMHO, those old stocks are some of the best ever built, even in consideration of some of the very fine stocks available today.

As mentioned, the bullets are very aerodynamic and after cutting a few in half, the jackets are extremely consistent. What else would you expect from the Swedes??? This was a very good indication that they would be accurate.

At the time, I had a lovely little electric/hydraulic operated swaging machine available to me that had an auto feed lube pump attached. When the plant shut down, that unit disappeared, never to be seen again.

It was just a small hydraulic press, with one of those in the tank pumps that are used everywhere and a short stroke, large diameter cylinder/rod. Just fast enough to do the job, without it becoming a tedious chore.

Ok, to the main swaging point. I had a lovely old Westly Richards with a .318 bore. The fellow I inherited it from, had been shooting short, light .323 bullets out of it. He used the short/light bullets because he couldn't chamber the longer .323 bullets. Nuff said.

I made up a tapered swage out of Drill Rod and after machining it to specs, hardened it some more with heat and a Nitric Acid Quench. To say it was hard is an understatement. It was so hard, it would dull a file on the first pass and the swage wouldn't be marked. Quick polish over inside and outside surfaces gave a very nice and extremely smooth unit to operate. The fluid we used for swage lube was just standard soluble oil, mixed 8 parts water to one part fluid.

The ram tip was another piece of Drill Rod, about 2 inches long. It was limited to the same amount of stroke. To say the bullets passed through this like butter on a hot plate would describe the action properly.

There was only one problem. The swage only had the last half inch of its interior diameter sized to .318. Every bullet I passed through it, ended up .3195. The bore of the rifle was .3175. Not dangerous but still a bit tight in the very close tolerance throat. Any bit of dirt would cause hang ups.

Oh well, only one thing to do, make up a new swage die. Went through the whole process again but this time, the last half inch was cut to .316. The results were exactly what was hoped for. The resulting bullet diameters were all .318 exactly. The rifle finally had ammunition it was built to shoot. The twist rate was not quite 1-10 and it shot them better than expected.

When making a swage to size the bullet to the diameter you desire, you really need to take into account what the materials used in the cases are. Unlike lead, which sizes exactly to the sizer, cupro nickel, copper, steel etc, will have some spring to it and will likely have to be swaged small and allowed "spring back" to the diameter required.

 

[Andy]

Those were the days - this stuff ran out about seven years ago. A bunch of us jumped on it and bought thousands of rounds of it each. I recall bearhunter, Russ, contact148, and Stencollector as big customers. For ammo over 70 years old, some had cracked necks, but every primer went "bang". Top notch stuff.

Enjoy!

Before anyone asks, this deal ended in 2007 and will never come back.

 

[bearhunter]

The powder in them is very decent as well. It is a stick powder that is very close to H4895. In fact, when I replaced a similar amount of H4895 in the parent case with original bullets, velocities were within 50fps on average. The H4895 velocities were slightly slower.

I've used that powder in 30-06 with 200 grain bullets and it is very consistent.

I didn't mind the split necks, they made the bullets easier to pull. The only thing showing on those bullets is the ogive and there is little if anything to hold onto.

I use a cutter to actually score the necks along their length deep enough to make a crack so I can salvage the bullets and powder. The cases are very good but they are cases unto themselves. Now that I have accumulated a decent supply of Berdan rifle primers, that case is looking pretty good again for other uses.