The Norinco 1897 Shotgun
Recent to the Canadian market are a batch of Norinco 1897 Trench shotguns. New ones hit the market in 2019 and a few shops still have stock of these.
These are the latest in a series of 1897 tribute shotguns to come from China. They are made to look and function like a Winchester 1897 Riot or Trench shotgun. The Chinese State Arsenals are the largest firearms manufacturing conglomerate in China, Norinco is it's marketing company. These are advertised as being Norinco. However, Norinco is not stamped into any of the metal work. Interestingly none of the metal is stamped with any markings. All the numbering and lettering appear to be Electro-chemically etched or laser engraved into the metal.
K193138: K is the plant code, 19 is the year of manufacture, and the last 4 numbers are serialized.
CN 19 CA: United Nations firearms tracking code; CN = China, country of origin/export nation, 19 = year of manufacture, and CA = Canada, destination country/importer.
I refer to this as a "Tribute 97", in other works it is made to look and function like a Winchester 1897, but is not an exact copy. All the screws and pins are metric, they are not the same size as Winchester parts and they are not interchangeable. I've taken mine apart and many parts are visibly different, easily distinguishable from original Winchester parts. Many pieces are shaped differently to simplify manufacture. Some parts, like the lock washer for the stock retaining bolt are left out. Also noticeable is the change to the receiver shank, which is not tapered like the original, and it is slightly larger. Fitting a Winchester butt stock would require some rework to the stock.
I think it's pretty safe to assume each of these is somewhat unique, and that the fit, finish and issues with my shotgun may not be the same as the other examples.
I bought mine used and the previous owner mentioned that ejection was stiff and that feeding some brands of ammo was not reliable. He had fired 10 rounds. This is fairly typical, I saw another one of this generation of Norinco 1897 for sale that had a bashed up butt plate from slamming on the ground, to free the action and eject the shell after firing a slug. I'm not making this up, the seller had pictures posted.
It does seem that enough of these shotguns had issues to the point that owners were disappointed in their purchase and are selling them. The lack of experienced 1897 gunsmiths, or the expense of having a 1897 slicked up, is a probable factor.
I am not a gunsmith, however, this is my second Chinese 1897, and I've owned a handful of Winchester made 1897 shotguns. Almost without exception I've had to work on every one. I've taken all of them apart for cleaning and maintenance, and replaced parts and reworked and fitted parts to repair them. Lack of available parts did plague me, and to that end I did buy a stock of used parts from a retired gunsmith.
Other than a quick cleaning and some lubrication I used my CN 19 CA at the last shoot as it came, no rework, no slicking up.
During the meet I did notice the odd stiff operation during the pumping cycle, mostly at the beginning, and a stiff and somewhat inconsistent trigger pull. Other than that, it functioned reliably.
I plan to use this 1897 for Wild Bunch as well, so testing with a magazine full of shells and slam firing was in order. I'd like to add that I am not a fan of "slam fire", view the lack of a disconnecting trigger to be a design flaw and a safety issue. However like Quigley so aptly put it, " I said I didn't like it, I didn't say I didn't know how to use it."
During slam fire practice a few issues came to light. The first was as the previous owner said, it's was a bit sticky to extract shells. The second was that when running the shotgun fast, the shells in the magazine had a tendency to stay in the magazine.
Thus began a series of exercises in disassembly, rework and reassembly.
The smooth operation of the trigger on a 1897 is very much dependant on the fit and finish of the hammer and sear. On mine the rough finish and metal burrs were making the trigger pull stiff and inconsistent. I carefully removed burrs and did a bit of polishing. Reshaping and removing metal on these parts can get you into trouble real quick. This is best completed by a gunsmith with a working knowledge of the 1897 trigger. Other than a few burrs and rough spots, the trigger was good, and it now works fine.
Making the shells come out of the magazine reliably was not as easy a fix. With certain ammunition you could load the magazine and pump all you want, nothing would happen. With other ammunition it would feed OK if you pumped slow, which is not acceptable for a competition gun. One issue was a bit of roughness on the right and left cartridge stops, this seems to have worked itself out during the course of testing. It's been said that these take about 100 rounds to break in. Break in is one thing, but they will not fix themselves no matter how many rounds you shoot.
As it turns out the main issue was with the carrier. It's rather difficult to put this politely, so I'll just tell it like it is. The carrier was made wrong. The nose of the carrier was perpendicular to the bottom of the carrier, not like the nose on the Winchester part which is perpendicular to the top of the carrier.
A bit of theory of operation: The first part of the stroke of the pump moves the carrier down, about half way. This unlocks the bolt, and the down stroke of the carrier also moves the cartridge stops, releasing a new cartridge. After the stops release the shell, the head of the shell is held in the magazine by the nose of the carrier. The middle of the pump stroke removes the spent cartridge almost completely from the chamber, and near the end of the stroke the carrier is moved down completely and the new cartridge pops into the action.
The nose of the carrier holds the shell back after the left and right cartridge stops release the shell. My carrier face was perpendicular to the top of the carrier instead of the bottom of the carrier and it would push the shell back into the magazine and the stops would keep it in the tube. There has to be a gap between the magazine and the nose of the carrier, some room for the rim of the shell to clear the stops.
The "how big a gap is needed?" is a bit of a mystery. I measures several of my shotguns and according to that it has to be at least the thickness of the rim, about 0.060" or 1/16th of an inch to about 1/8th of an inch there abouts. I decided on 0.100". I first made the surface of the nose perpendicular to the bottom of the carrier, like that on a real Winchester. The next step was to increase the gap, to slightly less than the gap on this Marstar 1897.
In addition I replaced the magazine spring, as I felt it was a bit short and did not have enough pressure.
The next photo shows the reworked nose on the carrier and it also shows the rough surface of the carrier that locks the bolt into battery. I will keep this lubed and check for galling, but as it controls headspace, I'll forgo any smoothing and polishing of this surface and the matching surface on the bolt. This roughness will contribute some to the stiffness on the initial stroke of the pump. In the case of a high pressure load, this roughness may even bind up the action. On Winchesters and my Marstar 97, these surfaces are smooth. These surfaces are poorly machined on this CN 19 CA shotgun.
Further investigation of fired shells revealed what looked like some machine marks and on close inspection I did notice a few grooves at the beginning of the chamber. Polishing chambers and barrels on shotguns is a fairly routine task. A smooth bore keeps pressure down and helps control recoil. I began the polishing with a break cylinder hone, and soon discovered a fair bit of rust. The rust was from the bluing I believe, as it was very fine and would clog the 600 grit emery I used for polishing. I usually finish with finer grits but I'd already invested about 6 hours in this project and the "enjoying the hobby" was wearing a bit thin
The pictures below show what can be accomplished with a few minutes of polishing.
The poor quality of my camera aside, on left is a picture of the chamber, and the round white object in the center of the bore is a wad of white Kleenex, to reflect light a bit better. The dark spots in the ring are the forcing cone, that area between the chamber and bore. On the right is the view of the muzzle, again a sheet of white paper over the muzzle to reflect light. The dot at the top is the hole where the bead is screwed into.
My last enhancement was to increase the pitch.
"Pitch: The angle of the butt relative to the rib or bore. Typically is 4 degrees or 2” of down pitch with 5-6 degrees or 2-1/2 to 3” possible.Less pitch may tend to make gun shoot higher and more pitch lower.Butt-plate should come into total contact with the shoulder pocket when fitted properly.Additional consideration may be used due to gender or body style.Women and men with unique chest build may require additional pitch."
I seem to like, or my shotguns shoot best, if I have about a 6° pitch. This is more important for shooting Cowboy targets. Wing shooting and skeet require less pitch, IMHO.
I enjoy my hobby, and like to share my experiences. This was my Norinco 1897 experience.
Nitro
Recent to the Canadian market are a batch of Norinco 1897 Trench shotguns. New ones hit the market in 2019 and a few shops still have stock of these.
These are the latest in a series of 1897 tribute shotguns to come from China. They are made to look and function like a Winchester 1897 Riot or Trench shotgun. The Chinese State Arsenals are the largest firearms manufacturing conglomerate in China, Norinco is it's marketing company. These are advertised as being Norinco. However, Norinco is not stamped into any of the metal work. Interestingly none of the metal is stamped with any markings. All the numbering and lettering appear to be Electro-chemically etched or laser engraved into the metal.
K193138: K is the plant code, 19 is the year of manufacture, and the last 4 numbers are serialized.
CN 19 CA: United Nations firearms tracking code; CN = China, country of origin/export nation, 19 = year of manufacture, and CA = Canada, destination country/importer.
I refer to this as a "Tribute 97", in other works it is made to look and function like a Winchester 1897, but is not an exact copy. All the screws and pins are metric, they are not the same size as Winchester parts and they are not interchangeable. I've taken mine apart and many parts are visibly different, easily distinguishable from original Winchester parts. Many pieces are shaped differently to simplify manufacture. Some parts, like the lock washer for the stock retaining bolt are left out. Also noticeable is the change to the receiver shank, which is not tapered like the original, and it is slightly larger. Fitting a Winchester butt stock would require some rework to the stock.
I think it's pretty safe to assume each of these is somewhat unique, and that the fit, finish and issues with my shotgun may not be the same as the other examples.
I bought mine used and the previous owner mentioned that ejection was stiff and that feeding some brands of ammo was not reliable. He had fired 10 rounds. This is fairly typical, I saw another one of this generation of Norinco 1897 for sale that had a bashed up butt plate from slamming on the ground, to free the action and eject the shell after firing a slug. I'm not making this up, the seller had pictures posted.
It does seem that enough of these shotguns had issues to the point that owners were disappointed in their purchase and are selling them. The lack of experienced 1897 gunsmiths, or the expense of having a 1897 slicked up, is a probable factor.
I am not a gunsmith, however, this is my second Chinese 1897, and I've owned a handful of Winchester made 1897 shotguns. Almost without exception I've had to work on every one. I've taken all of them apart for cleaning and maintenance, and replaced parts and reworked and fitted parts to repair them. Lack of available parts did plague me, and to that end I did buy a stock of used parts from a retired gunsmith.
Other than a quick cleaning and some lubrication I used my CN 19 CA at the last shoot as it came, no rework, no slicking up.
During the meet I did notice the odd stiff operation during the pumping cycle, mostly at the beginning, and a stiff and somewhat inconsistent trigger pull. Other than that, it functioned reliably.
I plan to use this 1897 for Wild Bunch as well, so testing with a magazine full of shells and slam firing was in order. I'd like to add that I am not a fan of "slam fire", view the lack of a disconnecting trigger to be a design flaw and a safety issue. However like Quigley so aptly put it, " I said I didn't like it, I didn't say I didn't know how to use it."
During slam fire practice a few issues came to light. The first was as the previous owner said, it's was a bit sticky to extract shells. The second was that when running the shotgun fast, the shells in the magazine had a tendency to stay in the magazine.
Thus began a series of exercises in disassembly, rework and reassembly.
The smooth operation of the trigger on a 1897 is very much dependant on the fit and finish of the hammer and sear. On mine the rough finish and metal burrs were making the trigger pull stiff and inconsistent. I carefully removed burrs and did a bit of polishing. Reshaping and removing metal on these parts can get you into trouble real quick. This is best completed by a gunsmith with a working knowledge of the 1897 trigger. Other than a few burrs and rough spots, the trigger was good, and it now works fine.
Making the shells come out of the magazine reliably was not as easy a fix. With certain ammunition you could load the magazine and pump all you want, nothing would happen. With other ammunition it would feed OK if you pumped slow, which is not acceptable for a competition gun. One issue was a bit of roughness on the right and left cartridge stops, this seems to have worked itself out during the course of testing. It's been said that these take about 100 rounds to break in. Break in is one thing, but they will not fix themselves no matter how many rounds you shoot.
As it turns out the main issue was with the carrier. It's rather difficult to put this politely, so I'll just tell it like it is. The carrier was made wrong. The nose of the carrier was perpendicular to the bottom of the carrier, not like the nose on the Winchester part which is perpendicular to the top of the carrier.
A bit of theory of operation: The first part of the stroke of the pump moves the carrier down, about half way. This unlocks the bolt, and the down stroke of the carrier also moves the cartridge stops, releasing a new cartridge. After the stops release the shell, the head of the shell is held in the magazine by the nose of the carrier. The middle of the pump stroke removes the spent cartridge almost completely from the chamber, and near the end of the stroke the carrier is moved down completely and the new cartridge pops into the action.
The nose of the carrier holds the shell back after the left and right cartridge stops release the shell. My carrier face was perpendicular to the top of the carrier instead of the bottom of the carrier and it would push the shell back into the magazine and the stops would keep it in the tube. There has to be a gap between the magazine and the nose of the carrier, some room for the rim of the shell to clear the stops.
The "how big a gap is needed?" is a bit of a mystery. I measures several of my shotguns and according to that it has to be at least the thickness of the rim, about 0.060" or 1/16th of an inch to about 1/8th of an inch there abouts. I decided on 0.100". I first made the surface of the nose perpendicular to the bottom of the carrier, like that on a real Winchester. The next step was to increase the gap, to slightly less than the gap on this Marstar 1897.
In addition I replaced the magazine spring, as I felt it was a bit short and did not have enough pressure.
The next photo shows the reworked nose on the carrier and it also shows the rough surface of the carrier that locks the bolt into battery. I will keep this lubed and check for galling, but as it controls headspace, I'll forgo any smoothing and polishing of this surface and the matching surface on the bolt. This roughness will contribute some to the stiffness on the initial stroke of the pump. In the case of a high pressure load, this roughness may even bind up the action. On Winchesters and my Marstar 97, these surfaces are smooth. These surfaces are poorly machined on this CN 19 CA shotgun.
Further investigation of fired shells revealed what looked like some machine marks and on close inspection I did notice a few grooves at the beginning of the chamber. Polishing chambers and barrels on shotguns is a fairly routine task. A smooth bore keeps pressure down and helps control recoil. I began the polishing with a break cylinder hone, and soon discovered a fair bit of rust. The rust was from the bluing I believe, as it was very fine and would clog the 600 grit emery I used for polishing. I usually finish with finer grits but I'd already invested about 6 hours in this project and the "enjoying the hobby" was wearing a bit thin
The pictures below show what can be accomplished with a few minutes of polishing.
The poor quality of my camera aside, on left is a picture of the chamber, and the round white object in the center of the bore is a wad of white Kleenex, to reflect light a bit better. The dark spots in the ring are the forcing cone, that area between the chamber and bore. On the right is the view of the muzzle, again a sheet of white paper over the muzzle to reflect light. The dot at the top is the hole where the bead is screwed into.
My last enhancement was to increase the pitch.
"Pitch: The angle of the butt relative to the rib or bore. Typically is 4 degrees or 2” of down pitch with 5-6 degrees or 2-1/2 to 3” possible.Less pitch may tend to make gun shoot higher and more pitch lower.Butt-plate should come into total contact with the shoulder pocket when fitted properly.Additional consideration may be used due to gender or body style.Women and men with unique chest build may require additional pitch."
I seem to like, or my shotguns shoot best, if I have about a 6° pitch. This is more important for shooting Cowboy targets. Wing shooting and skeet require less pitch, IMHO.
I enjoy my hobby, and like to share my experiences. This was my Norinco 1897 experience.
Nitro
