My PRS Learning Journey - Share here...

TacticalTeacher

TacticalTeacher

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Location
Georgian Bay, ON
As many of you have read, I've been pushed/cajoled/encouraged/booted-in-the-ass towards the PRS movement. This was accomplished by other Match Directors, Their Matches (Meaford Long Range Steel Challenge- for example), and by returning operators from hot and sandy deployments (yes, I taught a couple of them... heh heh :cool: )

So I'm going to start a thread on my learning journey and I hope it can be part of yours as well. Share any vids or resources to that end. Of course with CGNutz policies on hotlinking: No hotlinking allowed... so remove the "periods" in your URL addresses and leave blank spaces or "dot"

For example: www dot milcun dot com (my mentors' hangout and recommended school for improving YOUR game) :nest:


Tripods and their fun:

A discussion of tripods for Precision Shooting for beginners:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm0VbtNZ2Vg


How to Make your own Tripod and Saddle for those of you on a budget (been there, done that...being on a budget , I mean)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm0VbtNZ2Vg

and Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plqFbv3IClA

and Part 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLQvgwQceT8

Another inexpensive Saddle Making solution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJlaF1WbvvM


HOG and PIG saddles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZachLF7V1fM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMSgpKPfrJ0 AND I just ordered this for demo'ing at our PR Matches in Garrison Petawawa

Some stores I have visited so far:

693Precision (google him) Steve is a board sponsor and has supported my matches lots and lots...

Coretac Solutions (google him) Kamran is a great friend and has many solutions to your situation(s)

http://stores.hogsaddle dot com/ : My source for my tripod, ball head, and PIG saddle These will be seen at my PR matches.. :cool:


Recoil Management While in Position:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-ALqzUCSfE



Enjoy the learning journey.... :wave:

Barney
 
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Have had a few people asking about my setup (tripods and bags)...so here it goes:

BAGS
There are tonnes of bags out there in all shapes, sizes, colours, and fills...but which ones do you need/not need, and which ones will do what you need them to do?

Instead of dropping $100+ on each shiny new bag released, I dropped about $100 on Cordura, thread, webbing, Velcro, snaps, buckles, fill, and straps and then chained the wife to the sewing machine and started making similar bags to the ones I wanted to buy/try. The thought behind it being that if a bag didn't suit my needs, I'd have only $10 into it, and if I really liked the bag and my homemade job one day broke (which none have to this point)...then I'd be comfortable buying the real-deal. I've made 6-7 small rear bags, 2 medium bags, 1 scope bag, 1 gamechanger bag, 1 pump pillow, and 1 shooting mat (similar to the TAB mat). If you have the means or inclination to go this route, it'll save you a bunch of $$$ and will deliver a bag solution that is catered to your needs.

Tripods
I'll get this out of the way early...I do have the Really Right Stuff TVC-24L and BH40 Ballhead combo. Originally bought for my photography business, it has started pulling double-duty as a shooting tripod. I will concede that if I didn't buy it for photography, there is no way I would ever spend that coin on a shooting tripod.
So with that said, there are lots of options out there that will do the job and not break the bank account. Try and handle as many tripods as you can (please don't start bringing rifles into Henrys though...lol). You will notice a significant difference between Aluminum/Carbon Fibre, a sturdy tripod vs a cheap one, and it is 100% worth it to buy once/cry once when it comes to this.
For legs, ballhead, and rifle attachment (hog saddle or dedicated rail) with a load rating to support a 15-20lb rifle...I wouldn't spend less than $500.

Websites
- As Barney mentioned, 693Precision is my go to when I need to buy bags or support gear that I cannot make at home
- Really Right Stuff SOAR (this is their shooting division, but the tripods are the same between photography/shooting)
- B&H Photo (the best camera store on earth with a huge selection of tripods/advice)

I'll finish by saying that my comments above are what works for me. You may be able to find a suitable tripod for less that works exactly how you want it, but as I mentioned, there will be trade-offs in weight, sturdiness, support, build quality. In most areas of this game, the "buy-once, cry-once" idea with solid hands-on research will result in a smarter purchase.

Hope this helps!
 
I'm spending time doing interwebs searches on tripods. I'm trying to figure how the parts all go together, tripod, ball mount, attachment to the rifle.
I could make it a quick journey either by shooting 'Green Army ' or dropping a wad of $$$$ on the best-est of equipment. Better shooting through aggressive and excessive spending. chrisward3's 'buy once cry once ' words may be the way to go.
I'm fortunate to be able to sew up what ever bags I need. I usually wear shirt and pants I have sewn when I am at a match.
I'm kind of warming up to this new way of shooting. I am concerned however when Tactical Teacher says this isn't his first rodeo. I have suspicions we are going to be shooting off tripods mounted on top of a horses back.:p
 
I do feel that the way we did it last weekend (introduce a prop and then build it into a shooting position) may be a more inclusive way of moving forward as opposed to encouraging those testing the PRS waters to shell out a good chunk of cash just to play.

Unless the host club is willing to supply suitable tripods for the stages (firstly to reduce cost on competitors, and secondly to maintain a standard within each stage), maybe the club looks at providing a simple barricade or two, and the shooters are then instructed which ports they must utilize. This will achieve the same aim of getting us off our bellies, utilize shooting bags to build a suitable position, and put accurate fire on the target at distance...but without some of the PRS arms race that will definitely start to show up.

My concern is that these intro to PR (and now PRS) clinics may start to discourage some shooters that aren't interested in diving in too deep too early. I think there are ways to accomplish the aim (which I support 100%), but within a more resourceful way.

Thoughts?

(And to comment on theDuck's post...I definitely won't be able to afford a horse AND a RRS tripod! Lol)
 
One thing is for sure, there is no need (now or ever) to shoot in the next class "Brown Army Class" from the existing PR, or PRone position matches. I'm a believer in people should be comfortable both physically and emotionally. When they (new shooters) are experienced and ready to push their comfort zones, then by all means, stretch yourself. I'm just giving them that opportunity because, I need to tweak my programme offering to you PR shooters (experts and more experienced). Some/many of you have been with me from the beginning of the PR Clinics back in 2013, that's wonderful. I'm grateful that you folks love my 'brand' . :cool:

I'm offering a chance to push your own comfort zones, that's all. The PR matches are the only opportunity for raw beginners to get into this game and they can progress / improve/ gain experience at their own pace, especially when I've arranged a bunch of matches for the season. Very few PRAs (Provincial Rifle Associations) offer a PR program for members to grow / gain experience, so I'm super glad and thankful I have the great support of the Garrison Petawawa Gun Club. These DCRA.ca matches are a vehicle for growth and not necessarily the destination. Frankly, as a 30 year Master Edumakator; the learning journey IS the Destination.... There... that's the context or framework of our PR matches. I'm adding the new class with the intention of being invitational for many of you great shooters to improve and grow your own game to the next level (whatever that may be). Folks are free to expand their horizons using the tripod / ball head/ saddle/ pump pillow/ sling means of stabilizing their precision shooting as found in field shooting games or steel shooting matches, etc. :cool:

I'm not in any position to push / cajole / encourage/ convince my kind supporting shooters into the more advanced techniques unless they express their desire to push said comfort zones. I'm stressing you enough with my legendary gas / hot air at the 300m Agony Snap. :nest: ha haha ha ha ha ha ha

Now, I did order a PIG 0311 tripod (a tweaked SLIK 700) and a ball head CB-50 Feisol and a PIG Saddle from www dot hogsaddle dot com today. And I just received an email that the package is on the way. So that will tweak my delivery of this series of matches. Thanks for the chance to serve!!! :wave:

Cheers, :evil:

Barney
 
Being a new competitive shooter I have enjoyed and learned so much over the last two seasons with you! I can't hardly believe how much my skills have improved over a year! I encourage anyone wanting to step up thier game to get a training .22lr with a relatively good optic and start practicing as cheap as you can. Funny how shooting a .22 at 100m feels a lot like a .223 at 600m. As time goes on I am continually being challenged by Barney and this Brown Army Class sure sounds like a perfect next step. It will give the rookie shooters something to aspire for, another place on the learning map to visit. Now the budgeting starts, that combo you picked up from HOG seems real slick and I look forward to trying it out. Of all the tripods this newbie looked at, this one appeals to me the most....so far!

Like optics buy once cry once!! I truly believe in investing in quality equipment, even if it takes a seasson of going without to get exactly what you need. Some of my equipment is very good and the other stuff not so much hahaha My back pack for example is not the most desirable but cost me 50$ or I could buy a new 72 pack from 5.11 for 250$ or a HOG tripod..... see my point. We most often look at our budgets as a barrier but I'm starting to learn it's my self control that's the real barrier!
 
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Nate308:

Thanks for the kind words... Most happy to help you get going along the learning journey! Now, remember that nobody needs to or has to enter into the new "Brown Army Class" from the current PR shooting "Green Army Class". That way you don't need to spend any new money into the new class of shooting. BUT, you can make your own "Saddle" and recover an older tripod from some random yard sale. Nothing is stopping any of us from stealing our pooches' pillow to employ as a pump pillow to take up the void under our joints while shooting with a tripod.

Like my M14 welfare approach that's slagged by "real" gunsmiths, but works in the casual tweaking of M14 world, the home made approach to tripod PRS shooting has been well witnessed by many, many professional (read: deployed in hot & sandy arenas) shooters who learned this all on their own, and with the help of YouTube. :cool:

Hey, I might just take my own advice and venture down that road and make my own wannabe- Hog saddle and hit the yard sales for a retired moderate duty tripod .... Thanks for the ideas! :wave:

Barney
 
18 July 2017 and the goods from www dot hogsaddle dot com arrived. FIVE freaking days and all is here, including $62 in duty/tax fun.

This is what I bought for many of you to try out:

* PIG Saddle not quite a HOG Saddle made of aluminum, I went for the steel, harder for you guys to break it :eek:
* PIG 0311 G(reen) Tripod which came in a SLIK 700 DX Box, made for Hog Saddle folks under contract... of course, it's OD green for LCV (looks cool value)
* Feisol Ball head with a free locking plate (1/4" x 20)
* Sunwayfoto QR locking plate with both 1/4" x 20 AND 3/8" x 16 threads (more robust) and I mounted BOTH screws TO the PIG Saddle (yes both sizes at the same time) This thing is bombproof and not just built for a DSLR or video camera. I wanna ensure I can hold up over 20 lbs of PR rig including bipod and optics

Observations:

I'm loving this entire outfit. The Slik 700 was painted and tweaked just for this game by the Hog Saddle folks. Read all about the Slik 700 and the PIG 0311G in their site: www dot hogsaddle dot com


The Feisol Ball head came with a free QD (1/4" x 20) plate made of aluminum, but with the SINGLE screw to attach a camera/spotting scope, I opted to use the Sunwayfoto QD DP-60R plate that set me back $17 USD. Get this Sunwayfoto DP-60R option, trust me, you will thank me....Now you can use the TWO mounting screws (as I mentioned above) to attach the PIG Saddle to the top of the ball head. I'm so glad I chose that extra mounting plate. I'm gonna use the included FREE QD mounting plate called the "QP-144750 Release Plate" for a spotting scope down the road.

If you are considering this ball head, then order an extra QD DP-60R plate... like the KY Jelly, you will think of me..... :nest:

The PIG Saddle is a thing of beauty... you or one could actually deploy overseas with it if you had to use it on zombies.... :eek:

Anyways, I read the manuals for all pieces involved and then proceeded to assemble everything together. I chose to have the ball head tensioning knob on my support (left) hand side. I chose to mount the PIG Saddle and it's tensioning screw on my support side, and when I mounted my PR rig, I was grateful I've got this competition shooting background. Everything kicked in, all my training and experience just rolled along with the new props/technology/adaptation/rigs/ kit. Trust me, for you very experienced shooters, all your background will serve you very quickly. It's a fast and smooth learning curve for you master riflemen/women. :cool:

I immediately saddled up my CZ455 American (Synthetic) training rifle with it's Leupold Mk4 3.5 x 10 x 40mm. I grabbed the CCI Stinger .22LR ammo that this rifle just loves and away I went to my home range.

I shot standing and sitting positions at 50m and my groups began to progressively shrink once I began remembering and putting into place all the principles of marksmanship that I've been teaching over the years. FAST and FASTER learning curve. I was impressed. I began observing the "Wobble factor" since my mildot reticle was doing figure 8's around the red 1" bull at 50m. Then I recited the mantra of "Sight picture, Sight picture, sight Picture" as I broke the trigger slowly, and faster , and super fast without disturbing the sight picture. :cool:

My groups shrank and that was my measure of a very rapid learning curve. All those years of shooting 3 position, iron sights, US National Match NRA course of fire with an M14 all kicked in. AND... I have not begun to employ a sling YET.... more on that later on. :wave:

Cheers,
Barney
 
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I have almost the exact same set up (if you remember when you visited). I have since ditched the ball head and mount the Hog Saddle directly to the tripod. I found it reduced most of the wobble and groups improved.
 
FrankieT said:
I have almost the exact same set up (if you remember when you visited). I have since ditched the ball head and mount the Hog Saddle directly to the tripod. I found it reduced most of the wobble and groups improved.
Click to expand...

Now I ordered the ball head to be able to tilt the PIG Saddle slight up or slight down if I had to shoot at "unhorizontal" targets or sloped targets. I can always take it off and try the PIG Saddle directly on top of the tripod like you did. :cool:

For my clients I would like them to have this option; and try to see what can work for them! :wave:

Barney
 
I've used the Hog saddle without the ball head at some severe angles. I just adjust the rifles and clamp it in tight. Still seemed more stable, but it is slower to make adjustments. Ymmv
 
I have been doing a lot of tripod practice the last month in preparation for the PRS match that was in New Hampshire. I anticipated we would have some high angle shots and a tripod would come in handy. This practice was a huge benefit. We had 2 stages shot off RRS tripods and heads. These tripods are crazy solid, but at around 1500 US for the compete set up I can not justify.

The setup I have been using is a hog saddle on a Sunwayfoto DYH90i leveling and Arca swiss quick mount. This gives you 15 degrees of up and down movement as well as 360 rotation. You can easily put enough tension to keep the rifle from tipping but still allow for smooth movement. This leveling head set up cost about 200 canadian from B&H.
The tripod is a PRTS that hog saddle sells. My opinion this tripod is over priced at around 550 canadian. The Slik 700 and now the rebranded one hog sells is a solid tripod for reasonable money.

As for bags I use a pump pillow and game changer for everything. The game changer dose double duty as a rear bag and barricade bag. The Pillow fills the voids and give rear support on the rifle. When shooting off the tripod I use the pillow on my lap when sitting and a sling on the front to pull down on to help with stability. From standing I only use a sling.

One of the best training aids I know of is dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. Make every shot a perfect shot. Practice breathing, trigger control and follow through. STAY ON THE RIFLE WHEN RUNNING THE BOLT. If you come off your rifle you loose valuable time to reacquire your site picture and target. You can brake this habit with dry fire. After you have the basic down add in multiple targets and pretend they are at different distance. Practice hold over / hold unders as well as dialing.

The basics you need to go to your first PRS style match is
1. a solid .75 moa rifle min, dependable scope( preferably FFP).
2. Solid bipod. Harris or Atlas are the standard.
3. good balistics program, and have checked the dope at distance (min 600m)
4. Rear bag. You can use this on barricades bag as well.
5. Backpack to keep your gear in and use it on some stages

This is the minimum equipment, Below is the list of nice to have/make things easier.

1. Reload the very best ammo you can. I push for .25 moa at 200m. Most targets are 2 to 3 moa. You can get away with .50 moa.
2. A FFP scope with good redical.
3.game changer and Pump pillow. These bags are extremely useful. Just make sure you practice with them first.
4. Kestrel. I have held off till now to get a good wind meter. I will be getting a 5700 elite next week. This kestrel allow you to get all your dope and wind calls in one unit.
5. Take a class on positional shooting. There are some basic techniques that will allow you to stay on target better through recoil management and solid positions.

Shooting the DCRA/NSCC COF is a great entry point into long range shooting. It builds great fundamentals and pushing for tight accuracy. You can do well at this COF with some basic instruction and minimal practice. When you start down the road of PRS shooting you need to practice what you anticipate shooting. build a simple barricade and practise different positions. Start slow and create the most solid position possible. Start doing transitions and build your positions quicker with time. I have been competing for 5 years and 2 years now in PRS, it is for sure the most challenging shooting I have done and the most fun. Push your self to be better shooters.

Last thing is buy a 22lr trainer. Try to make it as close as possible to your comp gun. I run a MDT ESS for comp and a MDT LSS for 22 practice. It is a hell of a lot cheaper to shoot 300 round of 22lr and a blast. We usually shoot then at 100 to 300 yds or at the indoor range at 25m.

Well that was a lot longer then I Expected.

Cheers
Ryan
 
Thanks for all that knowledge Ryan! I really like the advice on keeping on the rifle and dry firing! As the new comer here I just want to support what Ryan has said about a .22 trainer! I got one up and going last year and my conservative estimate is 6000 rounds since I've got it up and running. Cant afford much training with something large. I've notice a huge positive difference in my over all skills across several shooting platforms and discipline. Every guy I talk to, I try and convince to get a .22 training rig going!!! You wont be sorry if you do!
 
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Thanks for the info Ryan. I was looking at ordering the PRST tripod. Now I'll rethink. You gave us some solid info to ponder and act on.
 
theDuck said:
Thanks for the info Ryan. I was looking at ordering the PRST tripod. Now I'll rethink. You gave us some solid info to ponder and act on.
Click to expand...

Howard:

I've got the PIG 0311G tripod here for you to try at my PR match..... Don't buy one yet... USE mine for the time being on that target lane....

Cheers,
Barney
 
Here is my setup for training..... And it's all about the training.... just like in Service Rifle and / or any other shooting discipline, these are fundamental principles that can/will be carried over. It's that simple.



Check out all that brass on the ground. Start by finding out which (start from the cheapest and work your way up the $$ scale) :eek: Then buy a shztload of ammo (above 1K ) in bulk packages. For me it's the CCI Stinger ammo that boast a velocity of 1640 fps with a 32 grain hollow point booolit. :wave:


Use a recycled peanut butter jar. First reason, you got lots of them already. Second reason, they are clear and see through. Third reason, the lid is a most handy dish for holding the .22 LR rounds in front of you or near you and they won't fall off the bench or roll around on the floor.

Label your peanut butter jar with a torn off portion of the packing label/bulk box/cardboard container... :cool:

Another view of the rig, and peanut butter jar. The nice thing about prescription bottles, you can always repurpose them for our/your shooting hobby....




My trainer simulates my hunting rifle, My Winnie Model 70 .308 Featherweight; it's a CZ 455 American Synthetic... AND I can go out and hunt gophers in Southern AB with this miniature sniper rifle...





Now you can have a close up look of the PIG Saddle (stamped steel) that's a budget HOG Saddle (milled aluminum) and a bit more expensive for the aluminum HOG Saddle. I placed the tensioning knob on the support hand (left side for me, I'm right handed). The pan adjustment and ball tension screws are on my strong hand/ right hand side since I'll rarely use them.

And YES, that is a Leupold Mark4 LR 3.5 x 10 x 40mm scope on this training rig. How come such great optics on a .22 LR Trainer? Because I can obtain the best and clearest feedback when I'm shooting/training at 50m and 100m. I'm not fighting the knobs on a price point/ bargain basement/ super cheap Zhinese scope. I need to know that when I miss the bullseye, it's me alone and NOT my equipment!


And of course steel ARMS 22 rings of which I have multiple sets here at home. Why ? Spare parts that's why. With many sets of ARMS 22 rings, I have spare screws in case any of them crap out the week before the NSCC National Matches in Ottawa... been there, done that! :eek:




And of course, now you can see a close up of the ball head by Feisol for $160 USD from www dot hogsaddle dot com

Notice the ball head tension is on MY left side....

Pan tension knob on my right side (of course I'm looking up range)

Now, here is my training regimen.....

I like to use a BINGO Dabber from the Dollar Store, it's almost an inch across, easy to use, never dries out and lasts me many years. Yup, it's a small target but sure is easy to spot your hits/holes....

I launched 10 to 11 rounds at each red dot.... Some of the groups are large but as you can see I've made progress. I started out top left, moving across to the right. Then working my way down, row by row.

The best groups are along the bottom and I was really enjoying the "getting the hang" of this tripod and ball head and PIG Saddle assembly....





Here is a view of what I see from the sitting position, or behind the tripod assembly. You can see the largest ball head tension knob on my support side (left side) and also the PIG Saddle tension knob on my support side, too. That way, the biggest knobs are readily accessible when my strong hand is supporting the rifle during the mounting and dismounting process. :cool:

Notice the 'minor' knobs like the Quick Detach plate are on the opposite side (strong/right side) since they are not as critical to me, hey, it's my setup, you go ahead and deliberately set up YOUR tripod rig the way that works for YOU. There is no RIGHT / Wrong way. It's gotta be good for YOU and only YOU.... :evil:


 
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