my second precision/long range rig..6.5x55

C

crout

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Location
Rosemary, AB
so after messing around with my 223 for the past couple of months i decided to pull out the 6.5x55 i've been building, get it done and off to the range. It's just been sitting because i needed a butt pad for it and needed it headspaced. so i headspaced it and then built a butt pad out of oak:)
i decided to use 140gr A-max moly bullets then after having no success i decided to use some 139gr lapua scenars i had on hand.

I pulled out my stash of lapua brass. i loaded up 3 of each powder charge at 0.3gr incriments and started at 43gr of H4381. and then set my target up at 300 yards.
I used 144gr lapua fmj I had on hand under a charge of 42.5gr of H4350 to get on paper and get sighted in. I had most of the groups where 2 shots are 1/4"-1" apart then the third is 2-3" away my last group was 0.79" CTC with a charge of 45.4gr. i decided the .79" group was the best because i can tell when i pull a shot or screw up. so i'm gonna load up about 20 of the 45.4gr load and see if i can repeat the results.

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here are the specs.
stevens 200 action in 30-06.
steven 200 stock with some mods:D
30" shilen SS match barrel 6.5x55
weaver bases
burris rings
sightron SII Big Sky 6-24x40 scope 1/8" adjustments.

future improvements when money is not so scarce:
new stock. maybe a new trigger.
 
Glad to see it all working so well for you. You may find that you are on a lower node. Not sure if that matters to you as that level of accuracy at 300yds is fantastic.

My 6.5 Mystic uses either 47 or 48gr of H4831SC behind 139gr Lapua's. The Swede would use a similar amount of powder. These are warm loads and would push the Lapua to 2900/3000fps.

How are you liking that Sightron?

Let's see some groups...

Jerry
 
I pushed the powder higher but the primers got flatened and the primers also cratter so i wasn't sure as how safe the loads would be. the 45.4gr load also showed some signs of pressure as well. not sure what else would cause the primers to do that.

the sightron is pretty good. just as clear as the elite 4200. i like the 1/8" clicks on it too. it should easily get me out to 1000yards.

i actually worked up from 45.9- 47.1gr with the moly bullets thinking the pressure should be lower but it's not. the scenars also grouped way better than the amax bullets. so to be on the safe side i'll be shooting 45.4gr with the scenars until the powder runs out.

i'll post pics tomorow of the groups. maybe someone can point me in a different direction.
 
here's my target pics, sorry for the bad quality.
group measurements:
44.2gr 2.4"CTC
44.5gr 2.97"
44.8gr 1.126"
45.1gr 2.62"
45.4gr 0.79"
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Good results...but to see if they're great results, you should shoot 5 round groups.
Even better would be multiples of five round groups.
 
I know, I know, it is the mantra of accuracy statistics BUT is it a test of the rifle, the shooters ability to be consistent and reading conditions, the stability of the barrel, ?????

My thoughts are if the first three are that tight, the only reason why the next 25 are not as tight is if the conditions change (not a representation of the rifle/load), the shooters screws up (again, not an equipment issue), the stability of the barrel - this one can be of importance if the desired task requires multiple shots in a short period of time like F class- here I test with 22rds fired in 15mins to test load and barrel stability).

Otherwise, why not shoot multiple 3 shot groups? If that is the concentration limit of the shooter, so be it. If a rifle, load and shooter is consistent over multiple 3 or 5 or 12 shots groups, that's all we need to know.

To add some fuel to this fire, I do most of my load devlopment with 2 rds groups. Why? Because if the first two don't snuggle up (good conditions and properly shot), who cares about the next whatever. Shooting 5 or 20 rds to prove a load is crap seems like a big waste of time, components and most importantly, barrel life.

Now if a load increment shoot great, I also don't assume that is THE load. Further testing would be required to get a track record of consistency.

When I find a promising node, I will repeat by testing around that node and eventually doing multiple groups to confirm, just like what crout is doing. But I rarely go over 5rds to prove a load. Three is my usual number but every group has to be consistent.

I am testing the load and rifle NOT my ability to shoot. I want as little interference either in conditions or shooter errors to affect my result.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
well i snuck out to the range today. after slightly cleanning my barrel(3 wet patches then 3dry) I heard that shooting different powders down the barrel can seriously affect bullet performance.
i was going to get sighted in at 100 yards so i could work out a crued velocity. i didn't place a target at 300 but there was one there that was really old so i decided to see if i could reproduce my .79" group at 300 yards. first 2 are great just about touching then the third is down like 3inches. crap i thought. so i fired 2 more and the group shrunk in but they still where not near the first 2??? not sure what i did wrong. i know i didn't want to clean the barrel down to bare metal, should i have? i assumed because of the quality of the barrel i shouldn't need to. my 223 barrel seems to work like a dream.

so i brought it down to 100 yards and fired. first 3 went into 1/2" then i put the next three(including the 3rd shot) into .37" it seemed the more i fired the smaller the groups shrunk. so i took it back to 300 yards and put the next 4 shots into 1"

I have yet to play around with seating depth and shoot my fireformed brass. so i'm hoping to improve on things. and i should probably neck turn my brass and get a good bullet seater.
 
I am finding my Shilen prefers shooting dirty. Every time I clean, it takes a few shots to get back to 'normal'. The longest set was around 100 223rds. Did some cleaning. No copper. Took a few shots to get back to normal.

Will not bother cleaning this barrel until it definitely looses accuracy. Might be a few hundred rds, maybe never????

I am about to get a Forster seater to try and reduce bullet runout. If I ever get some calm days, I will do some groups with and without runout and see what happens.

Looks like your barrel has the ability and consistency to shoot in the 1/3 min or better at 300yds. That is right there with the mega dollar rifles.

Not bad for a Savage and a spin on barrel.

Jerry
 
jerry, what's your 223 setup? i imagine your using a SS select match but what about your bullet/powder combo/ BR or competition bullet seater? and your brass prep. do you neck turn/ sort brass etc. . just curious as to what i can change to get better results. well not better but consistant.
 
mysticplayer said:
To add some fuel to this fire, I do most of my load devlopment with 2 rds groups.
Jerry
Click to expand...

2 rd group (pair?) won't tell you anything. Flyers can go in or out of a group. ie a 1 moa rifle will occasionally produce a 1/4 moa 3 shot group. It happens all the time. What if the first shot is a flyer? (wind, gun handling, loading error, bad bullet, bad brass etc etc)Then the rifle proceeds to stack 9 more in the same hole? You will never know under your methodology if a killer load was discarded due to the first 2 shots not touching.

Many a barrel has been burnt out chasing a lucky 3 shot group in load development. In your case a lucky 2 shot group.

Flame suit on.
 
rpollock, I don't disagree with you at all. What I am doing is a modified ladder test (will have a full write up article on another website later this summer) and it only works on calm days when conditions allow for 'confident' shooting. I use it to quickly find accuracy nodes and pressure limits. Everything is done to eliminate shooter/shooting errors. I am testing the load NOT my ability to shoot.

As mentioned in the above text, it is to narrow down the testing. Then I work around the accuracy nodes with more shooting and that narrows down my results some more.

Hopefully, you will be confident in your shooting and conditions that you can tell if a shot goes astray.

Eventually, I will have one or two loads that have consistently shot good groups. Then I move to larger samples either in number of shots (like for F class) or multiple groups. I end up shooting far fewer shots to figure out a barrel.

Just firing 2 shots will never define your load unless you get real lucky or simply hate testing :)

crout, for dies, I use the Lee collet neck die whenever it is available. A redding body die handles the chambering issues. Forster BR seater seems to work well for me. Ultimately, get that ammo straight. Although a rare occurance, standard FL dies and seaters have made some great ammo for me over the years. You need a runout guage to check how you are doing then correct the steps that are not doing what you want.

I only do my load testing with fireformed brass. Win more often then not. I try and get them from the same lot but have also used 1F with excellent results.

I always neck turn to clean up at least 70% of the circumferance. Deburr the flash hole.. Trim and chamfer. I never inside neck ream.

If I am using 1F range pick up, I will also check fireformed volumes. Let's me get some excellent shooting brass.

My 223 loads seem to prefer Varget for the 80's. Have also used Benchmark for the 75's. Berger or Amax are my bullets in 223. CCI 450 or BR4. My bullets are seated off the lands to fit in the mag and powder amounts are adjusted to tune the barrel (thus the 2 shot ladder test method).

I will anneal the necks every 4 to 6 firings. Still working on my tech. Trim as often as needed. Check for brass flow into the base of the neck and turn again as required. If you fire your brass enough times, you will get brass flow into the neck which can affect bullet release and loading tuning.

Consistency is really about tuning that powder charge getting it into the sweet spot where there is little to no vertical dispersion. Groups look like a football on its side. I would prefer to have a group 1/4 min tall X 1/2 min wide, then a 1/2 min tall and almost no width. Vertical dispersion really kills you at LR. I do my load testing at 200yds. You just will not see the vertical at 100yds.

You best load at 300yds is excellent and I bet there is little more you can do. Maybe going to a much higher/resolution scope to reduce your aiming error. Shooting 1/3min at 300yds as an average is very good shooting and really approaching the limits of most shooters and rifles short of a full meal deal BR rig AND very accomodating weather.

I would also take a look at your scale and its accuracy. I want an error of no more then +/- 0.1gr on a case as big as a Swede. Less is definitely better. This is critical because I am going to do my tuning by changing my powder charge 0.1gr increments. If the scale has a large error, I will never know if it is the load that is off or the powder charge.

I now use a digi scale that is rated for +/- 0.04gr. Assuming the scale and my technique are working right, my loads should be well within 0.1gr accuracy from cartridge to cartridge. I figure I am within a couple of kernels of Varget in my 223 loads.

In something like a 223 at LR, I have found it to really matter....

Jerry
 
thanks for the great info as usual Jerry.
i have lots to learn and lots to improve on with my brass prep. basically all i do is trim to min length and debur.
i have a lee deluxe die set i use. i'll be getting a better bullet seater this week for sure.

also. i was using a 1 fired casing to check seating depth on a different type of bullet and i found my necks are tight enough tha i can't push a bullet in by hand, at all. is this good/bad?
 
mysticplayer said:
Just firing 2 shots will never define your load unless you get real lucky or simply hate testing :)

Jerry
Click to expand...

Geez Jerry, either you do most of your load development with 2 shot groups (as stated several posts back), or you don't. But according to the direct quote above, 2 shot groups will never define the load. Just pointing out the obvious contradiction in this advice.

2 shot groups tell you nothing, except maybe where the zero is.

I am going to start another thread on this topic.
 
rpollock said:
Geez Jerry, either you do most of your load development with 2 shot groups (as stated several posts back), or you don't. But according to the direct quote above, 2 shot groups will never define the load. Just pointing out the obvious contradiction in this advice.

2 shot groups tell you nothing, except maybe where the zero is.

I am going to start another thread on this topic.
Click to expand...

I think you will enjoy the article when it is finished.

As I said, shooting ONLY 2 rds and stopping cannot tell you all that needs to be known but it can narrow down your search in a big hurry.

The key is reducing the variables when you shoot your test loads. I consider my process to be far more reliable then the conventional ladder test which only uses 1 shot.

What do you think of that test procedure?

I have been refining my test process over the last 5yrs with very reliable and consistent results. I have used this process on 10 new rigs.

Like all test methods, doesn't appeal to everyone but when I have a very limited number of accurate shots in my very expensive barrels, anything that can help me refine my work up without burning up my barrels is a good thing.

The fastest was 40rds, the average is around 100rds and that includes LR confirmation of the ideal load. That is way faster then my other methods of the past.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
I think you will enjoy the article when it is finished.

As I said, shooting ONLY 2 rds and stopping cannot tell you all that needs to be known but it can narrow down your search in a big hurry.

The key is reducing the variables when you shoot your test loads. I consider my process to be far more reliable then the conventional ladder test which only uses 1 shot.

What do you think of that test procedure?

I have been refining my test process over the last 5yrs with very reliable and consistent results. I have used this process on 10 new rigs.

Like all test methods, doesn't appeal to everyone but when I have a very limited number of accurate shots in my very expensive barrels, anything that can help me refine my work up without burning up my barrels is a good thing.

The fastest was 40rds, the average is around 100rds and that includes LR confirmation of the ideal load. That is way faster then my other methods of the past.

Jerry
Click to expand...

I am not a huge fan of ladder tests. Mainly because you still have to go and shoot 5 shot groups to make sure what the ladder test is showing is not an anomaly. Also you need to shoot it at 300+ yds under ideal conditions to really get a meaningful dispersion and for the nodes to hopefully become apparent. Not everyone has a range that will remain calm out to 300 yards.

I hope your article references the use of wind flags to try and minimize the wind as a variable. All other tests are a waste without them. Since most people do not have the luxury of testing loads on calm days, you have to learn to do load development in whatever condition mother nature gives you. There is even a thought that it is better to do your load development in the wind since it is unlikely to be calm when it comes time to shoot for points or group or whatever. ie; will the load hang together in a group or will it fall apart? I would take a rifle that averages .25 in the wind, over one that can shoot .15 in the calm.

Not sure what to say about barrel life. It is but one cost in the never ending list of costs it takes to play this precision game. It does suck.
 
Wind is truly the main weakness in any testing program and the largest source of error. Pity we all can't have 300yd tunnels to test in.

I find 200yds to be ideal for my needs and most will have a range this long ( I will confirm as far as I am likely to need this rig). Closer and effects of vertical dispersion vs small load increments just don't show up. There can be some dramatic difference in how the bullets land but the group size remains the same.

I am sure you know how badly vertical dispersion can screw with your accuracy at LR. In calm air, the groups should be nice circles but if there is some wind, I would go with a group that looks like a football on its side vs a football on its tip.

Being able to test in the wind is truly a sign of a very experienced shooter. It is not so easy to do and adds a huge source of error. Of course, practising in the wind is critical to shooting success as you need to train in the conditions you are likely to have to deal with whether for sport or hunting.

But in load development, I would prefer to limit my variables.

I would love to be able to shoot 1/4min in the wind. Some days, I am happy with MOA.

All barrels have a narrow window where they shoot their best. In my F class rigs, that window is not more then 1000rds (difference between lifespan and match winning accuracy). If I take several hundred to test and retest, how many matches do I have left before I need to set back or rebarrel? Quite easy to go through 2 barrels a season if I shot a number of matches. That is way too much fun for my wallet.

Jerry
 
A single, well-fired 2-shot group can tell you if a load is bad. If the group is big, the load is bad. (Rule 1: nobody ever made a group smaller, by shooting at it!). Bad groups deliver proof. One correctly fired bad group (even if only 2 shots) proves that a load is bad.

A single 2-shot group cannot tell you if a load is good (nor can a single 3-shot, or 5-shot group either). All that a good group or an uninterrupted series of good groups tells you is, "so far so good; the load has not yet shown itself to be a bad load". Good groups don't deliver proof, they deliver affirmation. After enough affirmation, you can start to believe that perhaps the most likely explanation is that the load is a good one.

Sorry if it sounds like finding a good load is a long and never-certain business....!
 
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