My shooting results. Please advise or criticize

Nice job, Eugene. You are making great progress.

A comment above mentioned removing variables. Here’s an idea for you: come try your rifles and ammo combinations at a very short 20 yards, at an indoor range in your home town. With no wind to mess things up, you can focus on your technique. Testing at a short distance won’t show you the best ammo for your rifle, but it’ll quickly show you the ammo you won’t want to use at a match.

Look at this link (remove the space) and check out the picture at the top of the page.

ht tps://www.sfgc.info/copy-2-of-range

This is five, 5-shot groups. I can do this with my rifle/ammo combo all day long. If I use CCI SV, Canadian Match, generic bulk ammo, most HV ammo, etc, the groups open up at 20 yds. Easy to spot.

If you shoot my rifle and cannot put 5 rounds through one ragged hole, then we can figure out what you’re doing wrong.

I’m at that indoor range every Wed night. Msg me ahead of time and I can bring in my rifle. I don’t always bring it in. :cheers:
 
Hi all, it's been some time since I posted here.
In the meantime, I sold the Ruger long range target rifle, and got myself a CZ457 Varmint MTR 22LR. Currently waiting for a new scope to arrive.

I participated in a Rimfire precision match with my stock Ruger American, and it was a lot of fun! I liked how people are, and in general the environment in the competition. I rated 11th out of 20 participants, and learned a lot. My next competition is Chilliwack in September.
So that's where I am on my shooting journey...

Now, I have a question to the more experienced people here:
How often do you recommend to clean the bore? Do you do a light clean after every shooting session? Do you do it after a certain number of rounds through it? Or do you clean it by ear, when a rifle starts losing its accuracy?
Please share your wisdom.
 
EugeneM said:
Now, I have a question to the more experienced people here:
How often do you recommend to clean the bore? Do you do a light clean after every shooting session? Do you do it after a certain number of rounds through it? Or do you clean it by ear, when a rifle starts losing its accuracy?
Please share your wisdom.
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That is one of those universal questions for which there is still not a definitive answer! :)

This one is keenly debated through the ages. The opinions range from: clean after every range session; to the other extreme of don't bother cleaning until several hundred rounds have been fired, and then decide where your rifle with your ammo likes to be be cleaned.... which of course is not a definitive answer.

I have tried both extremes and everything in the middle. Here's what I think:

My rifles shoot best when they are cleaned....BUT they have to be fouled before shooting for record in match by sometimes up to 20 rounds to season the bore and get it "settled down" for the dispersion pattern inherent in the brand/lot of ammo. (BTW I am talking target grade ammo, not cheapo plinking ammo).

Even when a clean bore is seasoned with foulers, mid-way through a match I often see a complete shift of where the rifle starts to group POI. I hypothesize that the fouling chemistry inside the bore is still dynamic, causing shifts in POI. Sometimes these POI shifts cause me to hit the 9 ring, which is enough to lose me the match because other shooters are shooting perfect 10's and X's for their scores. Maybe I did not foul it up enough?

So, the counter to the shifting grouping POI situation is to really let the bore be fouled by, say, 100 rounds or more, in order to let it settle down into an equilibrium of gunk in the bore, so that POI is consistently reasonably tight. Then shoot it for, say 500 or so rounds in the equilibrium sweet spot.

I oscillate between these strategies of clean it every time, versus let it get fouled for the magical equilibrium zone.......

Unfortunately both strategies eventually fail. I have yet to find the sweet spot of optimal fouling to shoot a match. I have won matches with very clean bores, and come in dead last in the scores with a clean bore, and visa versa with fouled bores.

Rimfire is a continual mystery to be explored! :)
 
EugeneM said:
Now, I have a question to the more experienced people here:
How often do you recommend to clean the bore? Do you do a light clean after every shooting session? Do you do it after a certain number of rounds through it? Or do you clean it by ear, when a rifle starts losing its accuracy?
Please share your wisdom.
Click to expand...


A few things to keep in mind when considering how often to clean a .22LR bore. If it's not used for getting the best accuracy/precision, cleaning it matters little.

To put things in perspective, virtually all serious .22LR benchrest and position (Olympic-style) shooters clean the bore after every match, some during the course of a match when circumstances permit. In some shooting disciplines, such as .22LR PRS style, cleaning opportunities may be less frequent and shooters looking to optimize performance must learn to anticipate and account for any performance changes that might accompany the situation.

All .22LR bores must be "seasoned" with fouling shots before best performance is achieved. These shots lay down as consistent as possible distribution of fouling through the bore which in turn allow for subsequent bullets to pass through the seasoned bore. The bullets require lubrication and the detritus of the combustion to perform as well as possible. The How many fouling shots are required will depend on the bore itself. When a bore is cleaned down to bare metal, for example with a bronze bush, more fouling rounds will be needed than if it's been patched only.

POI shift changes such as those refered to above during the course of shooting a match may occur for two main reasons. POI changes don't occur because the fouling in the bore doubles from 50 rounds to 100 or from 100 to 200.

One cause of POI shift is slight changes in the shooter/rifle/rest set up relationship that can occur when moving from one bull to another. Such changes are often difficult to perceive or recognize until they are seen on target. The other may be the ammo itself, especially with entry level grades of match ammo such as SK and less expensive Eley and RWS varities. Many shooters use the ammo in the order in which they come from the box. Unless the ammo is indeed completely randomly selected from the box, progressively slight but similar changes in rounds between one cartridge and the next can be observed on target. Ammo-related changes in POI are usually not seen with good lots of .22LR match ammo.

Why clean the bore? Bore fouling works best when it's fresh and "wet" (the round's combustion makes the fouling wet). When the fouling has time to dry, it can harden. Until it's replaced by fresh seasoning, dry and hardened fouling can disrupt the normal passage of the bullet through the bore. Too much fouling accumulation is one of the things that those who clean frequently want to avoid.

Perhaps as or more important is another accuracy-robbing problem that frequent bore cleaners want to avoid -- the development of a carbon ring. Left uninterupted by cleaning, the firing of rounds inevitably causes a ring of carbon to develop just ahead of the chamber. In short, a carbon ring can devolop to a size that interferes with the bullet's passage through the bore. Cleaning the bore regularly helps prevent the build up of a carbon ring.

Cleaning regularly with a bronze brush prevents the development of a carbon ring. Shooters who clean less often but wish to avoid or get rid of carbon rings focus on dealing with that particular area of the bore (just ahead of the chamber). They often use specific carbon removing solvents in the chamber area only. In any case, cleaning after matches will usually avoid the development of this problem and maintain peak accuracy/precision potential.

The bottom line: it's usually best to clean regularly, shoot sufficient fouling shots, and you're ready to go.
 
Thank you! This is a very insightful information.

Regarding the carbon ring, does it make sense to clean the chamber with a nylon brush and then patches?

I try to avoid using brass brushes in a bore
 
EugeneM said:
Thank you! This is a very insightful information.

Regarding the carbon ring, does it make sense to clean the chamber with a nylon brush and then patches?

I try to avoid using brass brushes in a bore
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Unless you want to save money on the cost of bronze brushes, there's no reason to be concerned about using them in a .22LR bore. Serious shooters use them regularly without fear of damage to the bore. Proper cleaning equipment and technique is necessary. Perhaps the most important thing is to never put any cleaning rod into a bore without a properly fitting bore guide.

In many custom barrels, including those that are lapped, the bore is finished to a very smooth surface that will clean easily with a nylon brush. Carbon rings can be dealt with by a nylon brush in these kinds of bores if cleaning is done soon after each shooting session.

Please note that a carbon ring can't be seen by looking down the bore, a technique that is not useful for much of anything. A borescope must be used to actually see a carbon ring.

When cleaning is regular, a carbon ring will not develop. I use a bronze brush every time I clean my rifle which is after every time I shoot. I haven't had a carbon ring develop and I shoot often.

Of course, just as there are many cleaning regimens that work, there are alternative methods to deal with carbon rings. Do what you feel confident keeps the bore in good shape. It's not necessarily a good idea to do what someone on an internet forum says to do.
 
This thread is making me glad I got my T1x instead of a american rimfire (I would've loved a moss green one since I have it also in .308)

Shoot 500rds of CCI and focus on breath and calling your shots before they impact (at 100)

Shoot 10rds to prime your barrel before switching ammo. Yes, it matters. Yes, it makes a noticeable difference.

Its seems obvious that CCI SV shoots ok, and SK will be much better. In some guns, half the group size.

I've shot over 800rds and havent cleaned a single thing! When I hit 1000 I will clean off the bolt as I notice its starting to be a little less-smooth on the lock down, but accuracy is the same this hole time.
 
Jahn, Do you have/use a borescope?? 800 rounds sounds a bit high, esp for CCI-SV. I go about 100 or so and see a beginning ring, so I put a C4 patch in after shooting. After at least 1/2 hour soak the chamber comes clean. I mostly shoot flavours of SK, but find CCI-SV is almost as accurate as SK+. JMO
 
Buck1950 said:
Jahn, Do you have/use a borescope?? 800 rounds sounds a bit high, esp for CCI-SV. I go about 100 or so and see a beginning ring, so I put a C4 patch in after shooting. After at least 1/2 hour soak the chamber comes clean. I mostly shoot flavours of SK, but find CCI-SV is almost as accurate as SK+. JMO
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It's one of those things, you will get conflicting reports. And really depends on the gun, when accuracy will drop.
 
I haven't read all the pages of comments, so I am sure everything being suggested has been suggested.

One thing I will add is that I have a fancy CZ 457 with all the bells and whistles and with the wrong ammo my groups are not that different than yours... but with the right ammo it shoots moa at 100m and 1 ragged hole at 50m. If I were you, I would try way more and better ammo to get a true picture of the baseline of what your rifle and technique are capable of.

I would suggest buying a sample pack from Tesro that has a ton of mid priced Eley, SK, and Centre-X. I would also throw in CCI Standard and Norma-Tac as these are two fairly cheap options that many folks have good luck with.
 
Buck1950 said:
Jahn, Do you have/use a borescope?? 800 rounds sounds a bit high, esp for CCI-SV. I go about 100 or so and see a beginning ring, so I put a C4 patch in after shooting. After at least 1/2 hour soak the chamber comes clean. I mostly shoot flavours of SK, but find CCI-SV is almost as accurate as SK+. JMO
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no, I dont. I don't see the reason to mess with a rifle if nothing is wrong with it.
 
gorby said:
I haven't read all the pages of comments, so I am sure everything being suggested has been suggested.

One thing I will add is that I have a fancy CZ 457 with all the bells and whistles and with the wrong ammo my groups are not that different than yours... but with the right ammo it shoots moa at 100m and 1 ragged hole at 50m. If I were you, I would try way more and better ammo to get a true picture of the baseline of what your rifle and technique are capable of.

I would suggest buying a sample pack from Tesro that has a ton of mid priced Eley, SK, and Centre-X. I would also throw in CCI Standard and Norma-Tac as these are two fairly cheap options that many folks have good luck with.
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Thanks, will definitely get a sampler pack from tesro to find the ammo that works best
 
When, without any cleaning, a .22LR rifle is shooting rounds by the brick and there's no noticeable impact on accuracy performance, one or both of two things may be occurring.

One is that the rifle used is achieving its potential. The other is that the ammo used is achieving its potential. Achieving both leaves no room for improvement and that's a satisfying result for shooters. It's as good as it gets.

Either way no one would have reason to clean or to be disatisfied with the outcome.
 
EugeneM said:
Thanks, will definitely get a sampler pack from tesro to find the ammo that works best
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Both Reliable Gun in Vancouver and International Shooting Supplies in Surrey have a good selection of match 22LR ammo too if you're looking for options closer to home and want to save on shipping.
 
You are going to get lots of advice / misinformation on the topic. Note that plenty will tell you my gun does XYZ groups at 100 yards. My suggestion is to only believe what you see. One hero group at 100 yards won't be realistic, which is why lots of sites that are serious about .22 shooting shoot multiple consecutive five shot groups at 50 yards and the same at 100 yards. Use that data's average to compare against others and not one hero group someone luckily shot once in perfect conditions.


50 yards: SIX 5 shot groups consecutive.
A good Vudoo, Rim X or good Anschutz will shoot 6 five shot groups at 50 yards in the average low .2 range.

100 yards: SIX 5 shot groups consecutive.[/U][/B]
A good .22 will shoot .7X average groups and below.

If your off the shelf gun shoots 1.5" or less at 100 for six 5 shot groups, then you got a decent / good gun.

Start testing at 50 yards, and then test the best groups at 100.


Also you are not going to shoot with precision (repeatability) with cheap Canadian Tire ammo. CCI SV in most guns is reasonably accurate and inexpensive. Eley, Lapua, RWS and SK are the next step up in price and potential. Not every gun, nor every type of ammo shoots the same...that's the nature of the beast in .22. However, testing and finding out is where the fun is.

Have fun.
 
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Speaking of cleaning, is it important to pay more attention to the actual chamber fouling than the carbon ring or bore fouling
when does the chamber get dirty enough to impact accuracy?
without a match chamber is there a void between the brass and the start of the barrel? where lube and residue can accumulate?
 
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mcg0107 said:
You are going to get lots of advice / misinformation on the topic. Note that plenty will tell you my gun does XYZ groups at 100 yards. My suggestion is to only believe what you see. One hero group at 100 yards won't be realistic, which is why lots of sites that are serious about .22 shooting shoot multiple consecutive five shot groups at 50 yards and the same at 100 yards. Use that data's average to compare against others and not one hero group someone luckily shot once in perfect conditions.


50 yards: SIX 5 shot groups consecutive.
A good Vudoo, Rim X or good Anschutz will shoot 6 five shot groups at 50 yards in the average low .2 range.

100 yards: SIX 5 shot groups consecutive.[/U][/B]
A good .22 will shoot .7X average groups and below.
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Where did you get those standards for what a good rifle will do? Will a good Vudoo or RimX shoot in the low .2's at fifty or in the .7's at 100 with SK and similar ammo?
 
grauhanen said:
Where did you get those standards for what a good rifle will do? Will a good Vudoo or RimX shoot in the low .2's at fifty or in the .7's at 100 with SK and similar ammo?
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I technically never specifically said you can shoot those aggregate groups with SK...what I said is that SK is part of the next step up in ammuntion. I have no idea about any other lower class ammunition, but unlikely except for a rare case in a really good shooting gun.

You can Google search Snipers Hide 6X5 thread...they have data stored / recorded from 2017 to 2022. In 2023, the data is being kept under the "William Buck Memorial Postal Matches". The postal matches show the ammunition used, to get that info from the 6X5 original thread, you gotta look at each post. Go to page 1 and see the summaries.

In 2023, there are a number of people in the William Buck Postal Match Thread that have shot SK in Vudoo's and Rim X in the .2's for a 6X5 aggregate at 50 yards and .7X at 100 yards. Everyone who shoots .22 seriously knows that SK is not on the same level as Lapua or Eley - however, plenty of guns shoot SK very well (including mine, which is on that list).

added info
Oddly, I see from the 6X5 - 2022 results, it shows a person with the same username as you that has an entry made with an Anschutz 1411 - is that you?

100 Yard Average:
1: 0.527” / 0.503 MOA (BisSilent- Rim X Lothar Walther 9/8/22)
2: 0.561” / 0.536 MOA (Dr. Glock- RimX Green Mountain 5/10/22) *indoors*
3: 0.651” / 0.622 MOA (grauhanen- Anschutz 1411 8/23/22)
 
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Yes, that's me. Please note that those kinds of results shown above are not usually done on demand, every time.

I would suggest that your standards may be difficult to meet. Readers should be aware that no .22LR rifle, regardless of make, can shoot especially well without using the best ammo determined by lot testing. The vast majority of .22LR shooters don't lot test and buy blind. Shooting consistent low .2's at 50 is usually not as easy as guys on internet forums often imply. The same is true for 100 yards.
 
I know no one asked, but for me you'll basically want to aim for 1MOA (10 shot groups) to be "really good" with rimfire under $1-2000. That means outdoor range, no fancy sleds, a "regular" sub-grand optic, and a sub grand rifle with SK or Eley ammo that's off the shelf because it's all they have. Add 20% to those sizes if using CCI SV.

Thats 0.520 at 50, 1.04" at 100y. It's easier to hit sub MOA at 50 than 100 though! I have a few 0.3__ at 50, but no 0.6__ at 100.

That's what I define a good shooting day to a bad one. Obviously, sometimes you get better and hopefully not too worse!

If you think I'm way off, go to the public DNR ranges and check out the groups that other people leave behind on their targets...I assure you, there's no way everyone whos there is shooting iron sights (Then I'd be more accepting of 3-4 MOA groups)
 
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