This is an evolving story. I purchased the rifle with the view of having a compact 5.56 rifle that could be good for range and rabbits etc. To be very clear this is not a critique of anyone, nor a complaint or any such thing, simply a factual outline of my experience with the rifle so far.
It arrived mid October, I took it to the range the next day with an Elcan OS4x attached and it would not group at all. On inspecting the rifle I found the rail to be very loose (it was not earlier when I mounted my Elcan scope to it) so I screwed it down very tightly. In addition the trigger was not re-setting, I would have to push it forward after some shots.
I then took it to the range a second time later that week only to find that again the rail loosened after a few shots.
Finally I used thread tightener on the screws, I took it to the range for round three, initially the rifle grouped reasonably well but then started to suffer from a wildly varying zero, we are talking what appeared to be a 1m shift in point of impact from point of aim. The point of impact had no consistency. There was significant vertical stringing and then absolutely no consistency of impact. Last but not least the rifle started to jam on a regular basis with FTEs. It was pretty brutal to the rounds with cases bent or rounds forced into the neck.
The vendor who shall remain nameless until the affair is concluded refused to take back the rifle in exchange for the same value in store credit, to quote them "Since firearms and ammo are final due to safety reason". I chose not to pursue this any further.
They forwarded me on to the importer, who came back and said:
"I forwarded your concerns to our gunsmith, he states that based on the description provided, it seems that the rail is now secured and the accuracy issues appear to be either caused by the scope or the type of ammo used.
Our technician also points out that most of the times, an intermittent jamming is caused by the use of an aftermarket magazine, if this is not the case and the original magazine is being used, sometimes a little tweaking on the lips will solve a jamming issue.
It is our suggestion to please try it at the range again using the original magazine and a good quality ammo brand and see if it improves the performance."
Ok, so breaking that down I felt it to be a fair initial suggestion by the importer to check these things. With that being said I felt confident that Raytheon has high QC for the Elcan scopes, but they are human so lets test that. Ammo wise it was American Eagle so perfectly good stuff. Magazine wise I didn't think that the magazines (LAR-15s) were the cause and any rifle sold to take STANAG magazines should function will STANAG magazines but hey ho.
So I decided to collect some serious information...
As requested I took the rifle back out to the range. To be as scientific as possible I used the below process to test whether it was the optic or the Type 97 Gen 2 rifle that was causing failures.
Process Outline
Step 0: Set up shooting position, a seated shooting position on a table with use of sand bags in a covered range to provide a very stable and consistent shooting position. Use the same Federal 55gr ammunition throughout the testing. Ensure rifle is clean and well lubricated prior to shooting. Ensure rifle is on correct gas setting.
The Shooting Position: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060996056/in/dateposted-public/
Step 1: Attach the Elcan OS4X optic which has been used until now, set up target at 25yds, conduct two 3 round groups to zero rifle so that it would be roughly zeroed to 100m with a 4cm Point of Impact (POI) below the Point of Aim (POA). Then conduct 4x5 round groups at separate points of aim at a steady rate of fire (circa one round every 5-8 seconds)
Step 2: Move to 50yd firing point,set up target at 50yds, conduct 2x3 round check zero groups then conduct 4x5 round groups at separate points of aim at a steady rate of fire (circa one round every 5-8 seconds)
Step 3: Move to 100yd firing point,set up target at 100yds, conduct 2x3 round check zero groups then conduct 4x5 round groups at separate points of aim at a steady rate of fire (circa one round every 5-8 seconds)
Step 4: Attach the Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8x24 optic which has been used very successfully on a WK180C until now, set up target at 25yds, conduct two 3 round groups to zero rifle so that it would be roughly zeroed to 100m with a 1.5MOA Point of Impact (POI) below the Point of Aim (POA). Then conduct 4x5 round groups at separate points of aim at a steady rate of fire (circa one round every 5-8 seconds)
Step 5: Move to 50yd firing point,set up target at 50yds, conduct 2x3 round check zero groups then conduct 4x5 round groups at separate points of aim at a steady rate of fire (circa one round every 5-8 seconds)
Step 6: Move to 100yd firing point,set up target at 100yds, conduct 2x3 round check zero groups then conduct 4x5 round groups at separate points of aim at a steady rate of fire (circa one round every 5-8 seconds)
Process objectives:
- Determine whether either deviation on zero/POI from POA is caused by the rifle or optic
- Observe any changes in zero/POI from POA
- Observe any malfunctions
Test Conditions
- Wind: negligible
- Temperature: -5c
- Ammunition: Federal American Eagle 55gr FMJ BT a total of 156 rounds of ammunition would be used across all 6 steps, as such no malfunctions should occur.
- Magazines: 5 round factory magazine and 10/20 LAR-15 magazines
- Shooter: 14 years experience in military, target, hunting and competition shooting. Very experienced with bullpup platform, military issue rifle was bullpup.
Pictures
- In order to provide proof of my findings I have taken pictures of all the targets used including the outlining of groups, measuring lines etc. They are numbered as per the steps.
Test Findings
Step 1 (25yds Elcan)
- Zero Groups: The rifle was successfully grouped with 2x3 round groups to be 4cm below POA. A picture was taken to record which impacts were caused by the zero groups.
- Group 1: Impacted as per the zero, it had 50mm vertical dispersion and 23mm horizontal, the mean POI (MPI) was on target.
- Group 2: Experienced a 31mm/4.66MOA upward vertical shift in MPI compared to group 1
- Group 3: Experienced a 39mm/5.86MOA upward vertical shift in MPI compared to group 1 and a 8mm/1.2MOA shift from group 2
- Group 4: Experienced a 40mm/6.01MOA upward vertical shift in MPI compared to group 1 and a 1mm/0.15MOA shift from group 3
NB: During group 1 - 4 the rifle experienced 2 malfunctions while using the factory magazine, one malfunction a failure to feed (FTF) rendered the round unusable, the second FTF required the round to be re-seated in the magazine and reloaded.
Target: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49061217802/in/dateposted-public/lightbox
Jam 1: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060996891/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Jam 1: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060484433/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Jam 2: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060996646/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Jam 2: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49061217127/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Step 2 (50yds Elcan)
Several minutes passed while I waited to set up the target, during this time at -5c the rifle was able to cool with the bolt locked to the rear.
- Zero Groups: Due to the vertical climb experienced at 25yds I chose to zero the rifle to 50yds. The rifle was successfully grouped with 2x3 round groups to the POA. A picture was taken to record which impacts were caused by the zero groups.
- Group 1: Experienced a 32mm/2.4MOA upward vertical shift from zero
- Group 2: Experienced a 65mm/4.88MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 33mm/2.48MOA upward vertical shift from group 1
- Group 3: Experienced a 111mm/8.34MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 46mm/3.45MOA upward vertical shift from group 2
- Group 4: Experienced a 109mm/8.19MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 2mm/0.15MOA downward vertical shift from group 3
Target 2: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060483928/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Step 3 (100yds Elcan)
At this point I chose not to conduct Step 3, the grouping was showing consistent very significant vertical stringing, due to the use of standard paper targets as shown I had no confidence that the rounds would all land on paper at 100yds. As such I chose to move to Step 4
Step 4 (25yds Vortex)
Several minutes passed as I removed the Elcan and attached the Vortex optic to the rifle and then set up both the 25yd and the 50yd targets. The maximum magnification of 8 was used during the grouping
- Zero Groups: The rifle was successfully grouped with 2x3 round groups to be spot on POA. A picture was taken to record which impacts were caused by the zero groups.
- Group 1: Experienced a 23mm/3.45MOA upward vertical shift from zero
- Group 2: Experienced a 24mm/3.60MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 1mm/0.15MOA upward vertical shift from group 1
- Group 3: Experienced a 42mm/6.31MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 18mm/2.70MOA upward vertical shift from group 2
- Group 4: Experienced a 54mm/8.12MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 12mm/1.8MOA upward vertical shift from group 3
NB: During Zero group 2 the rifle experienced a malfunction while using the factory magazine, a FTF rendered the round unusable
Target 3: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060994441/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Jam 3: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060485493/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Jam 3: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060993991/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Step 5 (50yds Vortex)
- Zero Groups: Due to the vertical climb experienced at 25yds I chose to zero the rifle to 50yds. The rifle was successfully grouped with 2x3 round groups to the POA. A picture was taken to record which impacts were caused by the zero groups.
- Group 1: Experienced a no vertical shift from zero
- Group 2: Experienced a 45mm/3.38MOA upward vertical shift in MPI compared to group 1
- Group 3: Experienced a 65mm/ 4.88MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to group 1 and a 46mm/1.5MOA upward vertical shift from group 2
- Group 4: Experienced a 84mm/6.31MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 19mm/1.42MOA upward vertical shift from group 3
target 4: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060994196/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Step 6 (100yds Vortex)
- At this point I chose not to conduct Step 3, the grouping was showing consistent very significant vertical stringing, due to the use of standard paper targets as shown I had no confidence that the rounds would all land on paper at 100yds. As such I chose to conduct a final test.
Step 7 (50yds Vortex)
The rifle was zeroed at 50yds, the Type 97 is a semi-automatic variant of the QBZ-95 Chinese Army service rifle, this rifle has been manufactured for 24 years and in service for 22 as such any issues should have been resolved by 2019 when I purchased the rifle. The rifle uses standard capacity 30 round magazines and as such to test the rifle one last time I chose to conduct a 40 round group at 50yds firing slowly and carefully. To ensure accurate recording of the vertical stringing I used my phone to record the target from a distance of less than 1m.
- 40 round group, the first round impacted 53mm/3.98MOA below zero/POA, the group experienced 200mm/15.03MOA of vertical stringing and produced a group that measured 202mm/15.18MOA. The average time between shots was 8 seconds.
Target 5: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060993716/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Test Conclusions
- The cause of the zero issues is the rifle and not the optics, magazines or ammunition.
- During Steps 1,2,4 and 5 (Steps 3+6 100yd tests not conducted) the rifle experienced a minimum of 6.01MOA and a maximum of 8.34MOA vertical shift in point of impact over the conduct of 4x5 round groups
- The rifle experienced 3 malfunctions rendering 2 rounds of ammunition unusable across the use of Steps 1,2,4,5 and 7 during which 144 rounds were fired. The equivalent to one malfunction every 48 rounds, all the malfunctions occurred while using the factory magazine.
- The rifle also experienced some issues with the seating of non-factory 10/20 LAR-15 magazines. These magazines were used for the majority of the shooting, it is believed that had the factory magazine been used for all shooting a far higher number of malfunctions would have occurred.
- The rifle produced a 15.03MOA group under ideal conditions and just over one standard capacity magazine of ammo. The standard soldier typically carries between 4 and 10 loaded magazines (plus bandoliers etc.) depending on requirements. The 15.03MOA group was conducted with a rate of fire of one round every eight seconds. The slowest rate of fire conducted for example by the British Army is one round every 6 seconds, from experience I can attest that this rifle and others do not experience nearly the same vertical stringing.
Next steps: The importer has requested I send the rifle to them for inspection. I will update this post based on what happens next, my hope is the vertical stringing and more can be resolved.
It arrived mid October, I took it to the range the next day with an Elcan OS4x attached and it would not group at all. On inspecting the rifle I found the rail to be very loose (it was not earlier when I mounted my Elcan scope to it) so I screwed it down very tightly. In addition the trigger was not re-setting, I would have to push it forward after some shots.
I then took it to the range a second time later that week only to find that again the rail loosened after a few shots.
Finally I used thread tightener on the screws, I took it to the range for round three, initially the rifle grouped reasonably well but then started to suffer from a wildly varying zero, we are talking what appeared to be a 1m shift in point of impact from point of aim. The point of impact had no consistency. There was significant vertical stringing and then absolutely no consistency of impact. Last but not least the rifle started to jam on a regular basis with FTEs. It was pretty brutal to the rounds with cases bent or rounds forced into the neck.
The vendor who shall remain nameless until the affair is concluded refused to take back the rifle in exchange for the same value in store credit, to quote them "Since firearms and ammo are final due to safety reason". I chose not to pursue this any further.
They forwarded me on to the importer, who came back and said:
"I forwarded your concerns to our gunsmith, he states that based on the description provided, it seems that the rail is now secured and the accuracy issues appear to be either caused by the scope or the type of ammo used.
Our technician also points out that most of the times, an intermittent jamming is caused by the use of an aftermarket magazine, if this is not the case and the original magazine is being used, sometimes a little tweaking on the lips will solve a jamming issue.
It is our suggestion to please try it at the range again using the original magazine and a good quality ammo brand and see if it improves the performance."
Ok, so breaking that down I felt it to be a fair initial suggestion by the importer to check these things. With that being said I felt confident that Raytheon has high QC for the Elcan scopes, but they are human so lets test that. Ammo wise it was American Eagle so perfectly good stuff. Magazine wise I didn't think that the magazines (LAR-15s) were the cause and any rifle sold to take STANAG magazines should function will STANAG magazines but hey ho.
So I decided to collect some serious information...
As requested I took the rifle back out to the range. To be as scientific as possible I used the below process to test whether it was the optic or the Type 97 Gen 2 rifle that was causing failures.
Process Outline
Step 0: Set up shooting position, a seated shooting position on a table with use of sand bags in a covered range to provide a very stable and consistent shooting position. Use the same Federal 55gr ammunition throughout the testing. Ensure rifle is clean and well lubricated prior to shooting. Ensure rifle is on correct gas setting.
The Shooting Position: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060996056/in/dateposted-public/
Step 1: Attach the Elcan OS4X optic which has been used until now, set up target at 25yds, conduct two 3 round groups to zero rifle so that it would be roughly zeroed to 100m with a 4cm Point of Impact (POI) below the Point of Aim (POA). Then conduct 4x5 round groups at separate points of aim at a steady rate of fire (circa one round every 5-8 seconds)
Step 2: Move to 50yd firing point,set up target at 50yds, conduct 2x3 round check zero groups then conduct 4x5 round groups at separate points of aim at a steady rate of fire (circa one round every 5-8 seconds)
Step 3: Move to 100yd firing point,set up target at 100yds, conduct 2x3 round check zero groups then conduct 4x5 round groups at separate points of aim at a steady rate of fire (circa one round every 5-8 seconds)
Step 4: Attach the Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8x24 optic which has been used very successfully on a WK180C until now, set up target at 25yds, conduct two 3 round groups to zero rifle so that it would be roughly zeroed to 100m with a 1.5MOA Point of Impact (POI) below the Point of Aim (POA). Then conduct 4x5 round groups at separate points of aim at a steady rate of fire (circa one round every 5-8 seconds)
Step 5: Move to 50yd firing point,set up target at 50yds, conduct 2x3 round check zero groups then conduct 4x5 round groups at separate points of aim at a steady rate of fire (circa one round every 5-8 seconds)
Step 6: Move to 100yd firing point,set up target at 100yds, conduct 2x3 round check zero groups then conduct 4x5 round groups at separate points of aim at a steady rate of fire (circa one round every 5-8 seconds)
Process objectives:
- Determine whether either deviation on zero/POI from POA is caused by the rifle or optic
- Observe any changes in zero/POI from POA
- Observe any malfunctions
Test Conditions
- Wind: negligible
- Temperature: -5c
- Ammunition: Federal American Eagle 55gr FMJ BT a total of 156 rounds of ammunition would be used across all 6 steps, as such no malfunctions should occur.
- Magazines: 5 round factory magazine and 10/20 LAR-15 magazines
- Shooter: 14 years experience in military, target, hunting and competition shooting. Very experienced with bullpup platform, military issue rifle was bullpup.
Pictures
- In order to provide proof of my findings I have taken pictures of all the targets used including the outlining of groups, measuring lines etc. They are numbered as per the steps.
Test Findings
Step 1 (25yds Elcan)
- Zero Groups: The rifle was successfully grouped with 2x3 round groups to be 4cm below POA. A picture was taken to record which impacts were caused by the zero groups.
- Group 1: Impacted as per the zero, it had 50mm vertical dispersion and 23mm horizontal, the mean POI (MPI) was on target.
- Group 2: Experienced a 31mm/4.66MOA upward vertical shift in MPI compared to group 1
- Group 3: Experienced a 39mm/5.86MOA upward vertical shift in MPI compared to group 1 and a 8mm/1.2MOA shift from group 2
- Group 4: Experienced a 40mm/6.01MOA upward vertical shift in MPI compared to group 1 and a 1mm/0.15MOA shift from group 3
NB: During group 1 - 4 the rifle experienced 2 malfunctions while using the factory magazine, one malfunction a failure to feed (FTF) rendered the round unusable, the second FTF required the round to be re-seated in the magazine and reloaded.
Target: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49061217802/in/dateposted-public/lightbox
Jam 1: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060996891/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Jam 1: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060484433/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Jam 2: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060996646/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Jam 2: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49061217127/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Step 2 (50yds Elcan)
Several minutes passed while I waited to set up the target, during this time at -5c the rifle was able to cool with the bolt locked to the rear.
- Zero Groups: Due to the vertical climb experienced at 25yds I chose to zero the rifle to 50yds. The rifle was successfully grouped with 2x3 round groups to the POA. A picture was taken to record which impacts were caused by the zero groups.
- Group 1: Experienced a 32mm/2.4MOA upward vertical shift from zero
- Group 2: Experienced a 65mm/4.88MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 33mm/2.48MOA upward vertical shift from group 1
- Group 3: Experienced a 111mm/8.34MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 46mm/3.45MOA upward vertical shift from group 2
- Group 4: Experienced a 109mm/8.19MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 2mm/0.15MOA downward vertical shift from group 3
Target 2: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060483928/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Step 3 (100yds Elcan)
At this point I chose not to conduct Step 3, the grouping was showing consistent very significant vertical stringing, due to the use of standard paper targets as shown I had no confidence that the rounds would all land on paper at 100yds. As such I chose to move to Step 4
Step 4 (25yds Vortex)
Several minutes passed as I removed the Elcan and attached the Vortex optic to the rifle and then set up both the 25yd and the 50yd targets. The maximum magnification of 8 was used during the grouping
- Zero Groups: The rifle was successfully grouped with 2x3 round groups to be spot on POA. A picture was taken to record which impacts were caused by the zero groups.
- Group 1: Experienced a 23mm/3.45MOA upward vertical shift from zero
- Group 2: Experienced a 24mm/3.60MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 1mm/0.15MOA upward vertical shift from group 1
- Group 3: Experienced a 42mm/6.31MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 18mm/2.70MOA upward vertical shift from group 2
- Group 4: Experienced a 54mm/8.12MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 12mm/1.8MOA upward vertical shift from group 3
NB: During Zero group 2 the rifle experienced a malfunction while using the factory magazine, a FTF rendered the round unusable
Target 3: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060994441/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Jam 3: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060485493/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Jam 3: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060993991/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Step 5 (50yds Vortex)
- Zero Groups: Due to the vertical climb experienced at 25yds I chose to zero the rifle to 50yds. The rifle was successfully grouped with 2x3 round groups to the POA. A picture was taken to record which impacts were caused by the zero groups.
- Group 1: Experienced a no vertical shift from zero
- Group 2: Experienced a 45mm/3.38MOA upward vertical shift in MPI compared to group 1
- Group 3: Experienced a 65mm/ 4.88MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to group 1 and a 46mm/1.5MOA upward vertical shift from group 2
- Group 4: Experienced a 84mm/6.31MOA vertical shift in MPI compared to the zero group and a 19mm/1.42MOA upward vertical shift from group 3
target 4: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060994196/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Step 6 (100yds Vortex)
- At this point I chose not to conduct Step 3, the grouping was showing consistent very significant vertical stringing, due to the use of standard paper targets as shown I had no confidence that the rounds would all land on paper at 100yds. As such I chose to conduct a final test.
Step 7 (50yds Vortex)
The rifle was zeroed at 50yds, the Type 97 is a semi-automatic variant of the QBZ-95 Chinese Army service rifle, this rifle has been manufactured for 24 years and in service for 22 as such any issues should have been resolved by 2019 when I purchased the rifle. The rifle uses standard capacity 30 round magazines and as such to test the rifle one last time I chose to conduct a 40 round group at 50yds firing slowly and carefully. To ensure accurate recording of the vertical stringing I used my phone to record the target from a distance of less than 1m.
- 40 round group, the first round impacted 53mm/3.98MOA below zero/POA, the group experienced 200mm/15.03MOA of vertical stringing and produced a group that measured 202mm/15.18MOA. The average time between shots was 8 seconds.
Target 5: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185498373@N07/49060993716/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
Test Conclusions
- The cause of the zero issues is the rifle and not the optics, magazines or ammunition.
- During Steps 1,2,4 and 5 (Steps 3+6 100yd tests not conducted) the rifle experienced a minimum of 6.01MOA and a maximum of 8.34MOA vertical shift in point of impact over the conduct of 4x5 round groups
- The rifle experienced 3 malfunctions rendering 2 rounds of ammunition unusable across the use of Steps 1,2,4,5 and 7 during which 144 rounds were fired. The equivalent to one malfunction every 48 rounds, all the malfunctions occurred while using the factory magazine.
- The rifle also experienced some issues with the seating of non-factory 10/20 LAR-15 magazines. These magazines were used for the majority of the shooting, it is believed that had the factory magazine been used for all shooting a far higher number of malfunctions would have occurred.
- The rifle produced a 15.03MOA group under ideal conditions and just over one standard capacity magazine of ammo. The standard soldier typically carries between 4 and 10 loaded magazines (plus bandoliers etc.) depending on requirements. The 15.03MOA group was conducted with a rate of fire of one round every eight seconds. The slowest rate of fire conducted for example by the British Army is one round every 6 seconds, from experience I can attest that this rifle and others do not experience nearly the same vertical stringing.
Next steps: The importer has requested I send the rifle to them for inspection. I will update this post based on what happens next, my hope is the vertical stringing and more can be resolved.
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