My Ultimate 44-40 load (photos)

Win 38-55

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I suppose in some things, I am a perfectionist. I have loads for all the calibers I shoot, but one thing that has bothered me is the extreme spread I get from each of my loads. I have used toilet paper filler for several years in an effort to get more consistent burning by keeping the powder against the primer. Toilet paper, loosely rolled and folded, is less than ideal, as powder can still work its way in between the folds and not get burned.

In the Summer 2011 issue of The Double Gun Journal, Sherman Bell published the results of pressure testing using a variety of fillers. Cream of Wheat and stacked hard felt wads gave the highest pressure increases, while cotton and kapok gave the lowest. Why fillers you ask? Cartridges that were originally designed for black powder will often have a lot of empty space when using smokeless powders. The simple solution is to use black powder but what does a fellow do if he wishes to use smokeless? I have a few rules of thumb, two of the most important of which are:

1. Always stick with original black powder ballistics (same bullet weight and velocity)
2. Always use smokeless powders that have the same or lower peak pressures as black powder (powders with a burn rate slower than Blue Dot)

If a fellow sticks to these two rules, he will get peak pressures and pressure curves that are the same as or lower than black powder peak pressures.

I decided to use cotton as the local fabric store did not have kapok. I bought just under a pound. My quest is to re-do all my loads, this time using cotton filler to reduce E.S. (extreme spread) and reduce group size. My first project was the 44-40. With a little experimentation, I settled on 17.7 grains of 5744 with a pinch of cotton between the powder and the base of the seated bullet, which is an Accurate Mold 205 grain gas check design. The photo below shows a bullet (not yet wiped clean of excess lube), a typical pinch of cotton (just enough to nicely fill the space between the powder and the bullet with about 50% compression of the cotton) and the case.

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Twelve rounds over the chronograph showed a muzzle velocity of exactly 1,300 fps with an E.S. of 28 fps and a S.D. of 8 fps.

Range Test

Today, I tried the load out at 100 yards. My rifle is an original Winchester Model 1873, received in the Winchester warehouse on August 1, 1889 and shipped on September 18th, 1889. Here is a photo of the old classic ...

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I had loaded up ten rounds but had forgotten that I had left the rear sight set at 150 yards, so the first shot hit just above the paper. I adjusted down one notch and fired my first five rounds. Four of them went into a 2" group at 100 yards, with the fifth shot hitting a bit low. I know exactly why that fifth shot hit low ..... the corners of the rear sight notch are blurry to my 57 year-old eyes and it is very easy to mess up on elevation if one is not very careful. Here is a photo of the target used for the first five shots ....

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I had four rounds left, so put up a new target and, this time, paid special attention to keeping the same elevation in the blurry rear sight notch. I got a four-shot group of 2 & 1/8" at 100 yards. Here's a photo of the target ....

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I'm happy. This load is a keeper. It is accurate (as my old eyes will allow with open iron sights) and it burns consistently, as evidenced by the relatively low E.S. My next project is to develop a cotton filler load for my 38-72, starting next week.
 
Is it possible to fall in love with a rifle???:eek:
I am re-loading .45 Colt with 5.4 grains of Unique used in a Colt 1873 Clone and there is a lot of space left in the case which would of been full of black powder back in the day. I have this lingering fear of a detonation, is this a reasonable phobia and has anyone heard of such a thing? I bring this up as maybe putting some cotton on top of the powder would mitigate disaster.
 
Thanks for sharing Win 38-55, great write-up and awesome pics as always.
I'm also looking for a similar load for my 1890 - vintage '73 rifle.
Could you possibly post the model # of the Accurate mould or PM it to me as I would certainly order one also,

Again, thanks for another excellent thread !
 
Skinny 1950, a lot of people use Unique in their pistol size cartridges and don't seem to have a problem that I'm aware of. Unique is a pretty fast powder, so I would not use any filler with it. You could try a bulkier, slower burning powder like 5744 if you wanted to use cotton filler in your 45 Colt.

Kevan, the mould number is 431200B. They want to know what your final sized diameter is and they go from there. I wanted .431. The mould drops them at around .433 and I size down to .431. Just perfect.
 
Is it possible to fall in love with a rifle???:eek:
I am re-loading .45 Colt with 5.4 grains of Unique used in a Colt 1873 Clone and there is a lot of space left in the case which would of been full of black powder back in the day. I have this lingering fear of a detonation, is this a reasonable phobia and has anyone heard of such a thing? I bring this up as maybe putting some cotton on top of the powder would mitigate disaster.

I'd be leery of using a filler with Unique. It "likes" some empty space and it will spike in some circumstances if the case capacity is reduced. If you are loading over 50% of case capacity Unique seems to shoot reasonably consistant.
 
I like your posts for two reasons:

- the pics and description are always great; and
- you are an antique and blackpowder "heretic". You continually do what some consider dangerous, even impossible.

I worked up to 16.0 grs of SR4759 with a 260gr cast bullet in my Chapparal M1866 for 1100 fps - I'll try the cotton. I really liked 24.0 grs of IMR4198 - it's a full case (no filler required) and gave 1250 fps.
 
I like your posts for two reasons:

- the pics and description are always great; and
- you are an antique and blackpowder "heretic". You continually do what some consider dangerous, even impossible.

I worked up to 16.0 grs of SR4759 with a 260gr cast bullet in my Chapparal M1866 for 1100 fps - I'll try the cotton. I really liked 24.0 grs of IMR4198 - it's a full case (no filler required) and gave 1250 fps.

Andy, are you sure about that IMR4198 load? If that's correct then this is one of those times when Quickload is out to lunch, again.

Quickload estimates 24 gr of IMR4189 will fill the 44-40 case to 125% of capacity, and produce 1600 fps and 32K psi using a 255 gr lead bullet in a 24" barrel. Quickload also estimates 19-20 grs of IMR4198 will fill a 44-40 case 100%.

Quickload generally overestimates pressure to some degree especially in the smaller capacity cases. I'm not loading for 44-40 yet but getting set to start. Are you positive that load is 24 gr of IMR4198? If so Quickload is out to lunch.
 
Quickload is way off this time.

24.0 grs of IMR4198 at an OAL of 1.625" Full, but not 125% full. Gave a very consistent 1250 FPS.

Same bullet, same OAL, same gun and I got the following:

16.0 grs SR4759 - 1100 fps
20.0 grs H4227 - 1250 fps

It would be interesting to run those two loads as well. If 24.0 grs of IMR4198 produces the same MV as 20.0 grs of H4227, then H4227 is at an even higher pressure.
 
Thanks for the post, I've played around with different fillers but haven't tried cotton. Good idea.

Have you tried Trailboss? Not trying to hijack you here - but I've recently discovered TrailBoss for exactly this reason, it seems to do a good job in my original .45-90, repro .45 Colt and .44 Mag. Hard to find this powder though I'm finding, just snatched another canister of it so I'm going to try it out in my 1898-shipped '94 .30-30 this weekend with some LFNs, also my .45-70 if I have time. Fills the cases well and seems consistent (for the same reason fillers assist this). For anyone who hasn't seen it, the powder has a hole in each granule, so it bulks better than others; so even though the grain load will sound "light" at times, the volume being taken up is greater. I've noticed a similar design in powder from an original .45-90 I took apart some years back, either late 19th Century smokeless or early 20th.

But you've given me something new to try now, very interesting. I'd like to compare some other powders with a good filler against TB, just out of curiousity.
 
- you are an antique and blackpowder "heretic". You continually do what some consider dangerous, even impossible

I know that some consider what I do to be dangerous, and it could be if a fellow did not know what he was doing, but fillers properly used can actually be safer in some circumstances than using no fillers at all. I really like this cotton filler.

sail32: There is a very small amount of unburnt powder grains, but much less than I get with 5744 and no filler.

NorthCoastBigBore: Trailboss is an extremely fast powder, right around Bullseye in burn rate. The advantage of Trailboss is its bulk, as you mention. Because of its very high pressure spike, never use filler with Trailboss. Because of its fast burn rate and high pressure, I think you'll find that the published loads give a relatively mild velocity. If you try to get velocities closer to original black powder velocities, the pressure really starts climbing. For example, for a 45-70 using FFg under a 500 grain bullet, you will get a velocity of around 1,100 fps and a peak pressure of around 21,000 psi. With Trailboss, a velocity of around 900 fps with a 500 grain bullet will give a peak pressure of around 34,000 psi. I would not use Trailboss in an original black powder gun unless it was a published mild load. I wanted to post some pressure curves for FFg and Trailboss, but my Photobucket seems to be acting up and I can't seem to use it over the last day. I only use fillers with medium to slow powders. IMR 4227, IMR SR4759, 5744 and IMR 4198 and IMR 3031 are the most common powders I've used fillers with. If you use fillers, stay with powders that have a burn rate slower than Blue Dot and use the two rules of thumb I mentioned in my post and you should be alright.
 
Quickload is way off this time.

24.0 grs of IMR4198 at an OAL of 1.625" Full, but not 125% full. Gave a very consistent 1250 FPS.

Same bullet, same OAL, same gun and I got the following:

16.0 grs SR4759 - 1100 fps
20.0 grs H4227 - 1250 fps

It would be interesting to run those two loads as well. If 24.0 grs of IMR4198 produces the same MV as 20.0 grs of H4227, then H4227 is at an even higher pressure.

Quickload says 20 gr H4227 with a 255 gr LRN will do 1420 fps @ 20K PSI, 96% case fill, 24 in barrel. There is no SR4759 available in the software.
 
Quickload says 20 gr H4227 with a 255 gr LRN will do 1420 fps @ 20K PSI, 96% case fill, 24 in barrel. There is no SR4759 available in the software.

Thanks!

It still shows much higher on the MV side (I got an actual 1250 fps), but erring on the side of caution, 20K psi is too high for that gun - in a M1892 or M1894, it would eat it up, but not a M1866. I'll drop that load and stick with SR4759 which is my go-to powder anyways.
 
I have been testing some Cast Loads using Dacron as a filler
(After trying some 5-800 Rounds of cast with no dacron in the same rifle 3 different weight bullets and some 5 different powders--> head shake!!!???)

One of the benefits is great reduction in Position sensitivity
Less powder us used
for me it has changed a powder that did not work in a semi to one that works great

I have good results with some of the information from another site that 99.9% of the topics are on cast bullets ---- if interested in some good reading check out
ht tp://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=142592&highlight=dacron

Dacron in a 30-30 with and without Dacron,
with pressure and chrono data to Back it up.

After reading that article I started looking harder at loading with dacron

BUTT (BIG BUTT) Use the Dacron in caliber's that need it
(Loading with it is SLOW)
and
Use it only with Powders that are recommended that benifit from using dacron--- Never start with a max load.

You will not use dacron where a case is 80 to 100 full of powder
so it is best suitable for reduced rifle rounds with lead bullets.
so you could use it in 30-06 reduced loads that equal a 30-30

or us it For cast bullets in a Garand or a M1a with 100% function

I have read about cast bullets in almost every caliber that can be reloaded on the above site
 
Yes good advice, I read up on it quite a bit before loading with it (especially the .45-90) and know where my pressures are. I don't use fillers with Trail Boss, only BP and other powders you've mentioned (i.e. IMR 4198). I'm glad for your input, I'm curious to see how TB is stacking up - especially given some of the cautions you raise.


NorthCoastBigBore: Trailboss is an extremely fast powder, right around Bullseye in burn rate. The advantage of Trailboss is its bulk, as you mention. Because of its very high pressure spike, never use filler with Trailboss. Because of its fast burn rate and high pressure, I think you'll find that the published loads give a relatively mild velocity. If you try to get velocities closer to original black powder velocities, the pressure really starts climbing. For example, for a 45-70 using FFg under a 500 grain bullet, you will get a velocity of around 1,100 fps and a peak pressure of around 21,000 psi. With Trailboss, a velocity of around 900 fps with a 500 grain bullet will give a peak pressure of around 34,000 psi. I would not use Trailboss in an original black powder gun unless it was a published mild load. I wanted to post some pressure curves for FFg and Trailboss, but my Photobucket seems to be acting up and I can't seem to use it over the last day. I only use fillers with medium to slow powders. IMR 4227, IMR SR4759, 5744 and IMR 4198 and IMR 3031 are the most common powders I've used fillers with. If you use fillers, stay with powders that have a burn rate slower than Blue Dot and use the two rules of thumb I mentioned in my post and you should be alright.[/QUOTE]
 
Win 38-55,

Your post here regarding your load work up and your Winchester 73 is fantastic. I always make sure that I read your posts. Thanks.
 
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