Mystery Remington Rolling Block

M

Micky Finn

CGN Regular
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
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Location
Quesnel, BC
Trying to identify this firearm. <https://onedrive.live.com/?v=photos...14!16745&parId=root&parQt=allmyphotos&o=OneUp>

Any help you can give me will be appreciated!

The story,
Picked this rifle up from the RCMP for a widow who had it seized for improper storage after her husband died and her housekeeper reported her.

His Grandfather acquired the gun in the US and they brought it to Canada when the immigrated in the '60's. He apparently fired it in the '70's.

No stampings on the metal other than a "U" on each of the three barrel bands. There is no serial number or caliber designation I can find, but on the Upper Tang, the Remington patent dates have been printed on.
<https://onedrive.live.com/?v=photos...14!16748&parId=root&parQt=allmyphotos&o=OneUp>
<https://onedrive.live.com/?v=photos...14!16747&parId=root&parQt=allmyphotos&o=OneUp>

It is worn and hard to read but I think I can see "1873" as the last date, but I believe it is a first generation action as the hammer doesn't fall to half #### when closing the breach block.

I have not cast the chamber but have slugged the barrel and find it to be some sort of .43/11mm (.439/11.1mm) with 5 lands and groves. A 45-70 Gov case shortened by .285 fits the chamber so that is where I think the cartridge would be necked for the smaller bullet.

There are two marks stamped into the Buttstock, a "R" on top, just ahead of the buttplate screw and a "1" on the right side.
<https://onedrive.live.com/?v=photos&cid=06225BD87801EC14&id=6225BD87801EC14%2116743&parId=root&parQt=allmyphotos&o=OneUp>
<https://onedrive.live.com/?v=photos&cid=06225BD87801EC14&id=6225BD87801EC14%2116744&parId=root&parQt=allmyphotos&o=OneUp>
 
Micky Finn said:
Trying to identify this firearm. <https://onedrive.live.com/?v=photos...14!16745&parId=root&parQt=allmyphotos&o=OneUp>

Any help you can give me will be appreciated!

The story,
Picked this rifle up from the RCMP for a widow who had it seized for improper storage after her husband died and her housekeeper reported her.

His Grandfather acquired the gun in the US and they brought it to Canada when the immigrated in the '60's. He apparently fired it in the '70's.

No stampings on the metal other than a "U" on each of the three barrel bands. There is no serial number or caliber designation I can find, but on the Upper Tang, the Remington patent dates have been printed on.
<https://onedrive.live.com/?v=photos...14!16748&parId=root&parQt=allmyphotos&o=OneUp>
<https://onedrive.live.com/?v=photos...14!16747&parId=root&parQt=allmyphotos&o=OneUp>

It is worn and hard to read but I think I can see "1873" as the last date, but I believe it is a first generation action as the hammer doesn't fall to half #### when closing the breach block.

I have not cast the chamber but have slugged the barrel and find it to be some sort of .43/11mm (.439/11.1mm) with 5 lands and groves. A 45-70 Gov case shortened by .285 fits the chamber so that is where I think the cartridge would be necked for the smaller bullet.

There are two marks stamped into the Buttstock, a "R" on top, just ahead of the buttplate screw and a "1" on the right side.
<https://onedrive.live.com/?v=photos&cid=06225BD87801EC14&id=6225BD87801EC14%2116743&parId=root&parQt=allmyphotos&o=OneUp>
<https://onedrive.live.com/?v=photos&cid=06225BD87801EC14&id=6225BD87801EC14%2116744&parId=root&parQt=allmyphotos&o=OneUp>
Click to expand...


Your pics don't work for me. It's likely a .43 Spanish or Egyptian. Likely Spanish as the Egyptians like stamping stuff a lot.
 
Pics dont work for me either. Do you have to give people permission to view your OneDrive files by chance? (I know google Docs is like that)
 
There's a Danish rolling block cartridge that's quite similar to 45-70 called a 10mm something. Could be that if the 45-70 brass is a close fit but the bore seems pretty small for that to be.
 
As others have said - the 43/11mm bore puts you a long way towards determining what it is. If the sight graduations are in arabic that'll start to suggest what case it might be, but sights can be replaced and I don't know how many different cases were officially and unofficially used by Egypt or any of the Arab countries over time.

One option to figure things out is to wax cast the chamber. Give the chamber and throat a really good cleaning and wipe them down with a surface of oil. Put a rod with jag, or plug of paper towel up the bore to just ahead of the chamber so that it's tight and fully seals the bore. Next twist a good amount of yarn together and knot it down its length. If you can tuck the bottom end down a bit past the paper plug all the better - the straighter it is the better. Next heat your wax and pour it into the chamber and let cool thoroughly. If you've done it right, the straight knotted yarn should anchor into the wax and the oil on the chamber walls should act as a release agent, and you'll get a complete, if quite fragile chamber cast, which you can get rough measurements from on case diameter, length, shoulder location etc etc. It may help to have your chamber just above room temp to get a good cast if your house is a bit cold. If the wax sets too quickly it'll have gaps, but if it's too warm in the house it'll never set, or the oil will migrate off the chamber walls and won't act as a release. Another CGN'er taught me that ;)
 
Thanks everyone. I have tried to Change OneDrive permissions but doesn't seem to do anything.
Blastattack, I knew about the Spanish and Egyptian .43/11mm calibers. The lack of stamping made me think .43 Spanish but according to a site I found for Rolling Block collectors, the rim seems to be too large.
V.Viking the Danish 10mm cartridge sounds like a good thing to try though, Thanks.
H Wally, the sight graduations are standard Arabic numerals - 4 to 11. Thanks for the description of how to make a chamber cast! I had heard of it but was not sure how.
Finally, Green yes there is a bayonet lug on the right hand side of the barrel. About 1 1/4" from the muzzle.
I continue to work on viewing permissions for OneDrive, will investigate the Danish cartridge and try casting the chamber.
If my reply's have tweaked any ideas or anyone else has comments, please feel free. i can use all the help I can get.
Thanks Again,
Micky
 
The Danish Remington was original a RF ctg but most were converted to 11.7x51R CF a ctg which closely resembles the 45-70 but not interchangeable.
 
Green, Thanks for the additional information. There was also supposed to have been a 11.4 X 51R, do you have anything on that cartridge?
I am not finding much on either.

Donny, I went down to the detachment office here, there is only one for several hundred square miles, with the lady in question and she asked for her guns returned (Three were seized). She once taught in town here and the woman at the desk was an ex-student. I presented my RPAL to take possession. The case officer agreed to release them to me on the condition I not return them to her until such time as she was able to aquire a PAL.
Easy - Peasy
I have done it several times in the past, (I was BCWF Firearms Committee Chair at one time) and this happens quite regularly to widows who haven't kept up on changes in the law. Their husband's normally worried about that sort of thing.
Just because those changes took place 25 years ago is hardly relevant when you are over 80.
Thanks Again.
 
Micky Finn said:
Green, Thanks for the additional information. There was also supposed to have been a 11.4 X 51R, do you have anything on that cartridge?
I am not finding much on either.

Donny, I went down to the detachment office here, there is only one for several hundred square miles, with the lady in question and she asked for her guns returned (Three were seized). She once taught in town here and the woman at the desk was an ex-student. I presented my RPAL to take possession. The case officer agreed to release them to me on the condition I not return them to her until such time as she was able to aquire a PAL.
Easy - Peasy
I have done it several times in the past, (I was BCWF Firearms Committee Chair at one time) and this happens quite regularly to widows who haven't kept up on changes in the law. Their husband's normally worried about that sort of thing.
Just because those changes took place 25 years ago is hardly relevant when you are over 80.
Thanks Again.
Click to expand...

That's awesome and way to save the rifle.
 
It's funny but odds are the rolling block is at least antique from manufacturing periods and bore diameter, so she wouldn't technically need her PAL anyways and she was in correct possession of it before... no point arguing that with the people holding it though. Shame on that nosey do-gooding housekeeper.

Micky Finn - you can also post to photobucket, imgur, tinypic, postimage and a range of other sites to allow people to see the photos. Photobucket is the classic image host, but has gotten hard to use in recent years. Imgur is very easy to use, but you can't hotlink pictures (make them visible on this site), instead you just provide the link to them on imgur. Tinypic is super fast and easy to use, but you should at least create an account or your pictures will disappear off into their archives somewhere unless you keep a link saved somewhere, and postimage is similar to tinypic and the old photobucket in use, but a little less convenient and bare bones.
 
I am a little curious as to why you say the comment about the hammer not falling to half #### when the action is closed. I have never seen ANY rolling block that did such, as you must fully #### the hammer to allow yourself to rotate the breech block , so as to access the chamber. One of the 'selling' features, in fact, was that the action was ready to fire when the breech block was closed.

Remington made, literally, tons of those as bare actions, sold to various outfits as a way to rapidly and cheaply convert a muzzle loader to a cartridge firearm, they also sold pretty much any qty that was ordered, in any form that the customer was willing to pay for, at the time period they were making those actions originally. They had a very active force of sales folks that were traveling around the world, hustling their products.

Unfortunately, if they kept records of who, when, and how many, those records have been undiscovered to date, or destroyed in one or more of the purges of historical data as Remington evolved as a company.

Another possibility to consider is that the rifle was put together for sale by mail order, back when that was a thing. The markings on the tang (Typically the Remington Company name and address, and several Patent dates) look like they have been well and truly sandpapered over, it would be easier to tell, with some clear, larger photos. There should be a Date, marked on the RH side of the action, which, if it has not been obliterated completely, may require a bit of careful turning to and fro in a decent light to see.

I agree, that some clear photos of the action and the sight, esp. the markings on it, will go a ways towards possibly identifying the source.
A chamber cast might prove helpful to ID the cartridge, which would in turn, identify the origins. Maybe.

Cheers
Trev
 
577-450, Thanks!

Green, having trouble posting pictures. 577-450 had to do it for me.

Wally, I was aware of the exception for Antiques. There is also one for Estate Executors, there were three guns total and only one an antique, but have learned that arguing it in a RCMP detachment is a waste of everyone's time

Trev, The comment concerning half #### is the US military actions, at least #2 & #3 according Remington Collectors forum, mention that were built to automatically return to half #### when the breech block was closed. They were worried about the hammer falling on a full chamber. You had to pull it back to full #### again to fire. So i figured it must be a #1 action. Exports may be different.

Cast the chamber, looks like a .43 Spanish (11.15X58R). So the story that was given to the owner is not accurate. Oh well, at least three more guns saved from the smelter! One a genuine antique.

Thanks Everyone for their help!!!
Micky Finn
 
Last edited:
The No1 Remington action was the large BP action. No2 was a smaller action and No3 was the Remington Hepburn a totally different design.
The New York State model was a variant of the No1 deigned to fall to half #### on closing the action. As is apparent from its name it was made for the NY National Guard and was catalogued for sale for many years.
 
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