N.W.M.P. marked Lee Metford carbine
- Thread starter Iron Duke
- Start date
Thanks, yes, I suppose I was aware that the barrels are numbered as well.
So I can answer my own question: the bolts were intentionally or accidentally jumbled when the carbines were sold as surplus. People certainly do have a right to keep to themselves information that they have gathered and gleaned over the years by their own efforts. Sadly most of them do, and not only that information, but also some that was freely bestowed on them by others now long gone. Freely bestowed perhaps, in the hope that it would be passed on. Sure, like an inheritance, it's the recipient's property to dispose of as they wish, but I do remember some people saying that we are the custodians of the artifacts we collect, rather than just their owners.
Is the same not true of knowledge?
So one day we all drop dead and all that information and knowledge is lost if it hasn't been recorded and if by some luck, the loving family does not toss it all in the trash and send the artifacts to the auction. Some people would say, "Fine, I don't need it anymore, so who cares what happens to it?". Others might say that there is a larger interest at stake, and if everyone goes around with all their cards held to their chests all the time, what is the result? Something like the evolution of knowledge in previous centuries where inventions and knowledge were created, used, hoarded and lost, and then the process was repeated again and again.
Example: obstetrical forceps were invented by a doctor in the 1600s if I remember correctly. He hid the knowledge in his family until the early 1800s. How many women and children died unnecessarily because of his greed? Historical knowledge of our kind is a bit different I agree, but the reason we have so many unanswered questions is that hardly anybody took the trouble to record and disseminate what they knew in the past.
As for fakes, what they require is an ignorant buyer and what better way to ensure that than to keep the knowledge hidden and almost ensure its eventual loss?
What about all those experts who have written books on different types of firearms; should they have kept their knowledge to themselves?
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This is truly a beautiful little rifle..... and completely original, from what I can see.
The owner must be VERY proud to have such a perfect specimen of this very rare piece of Canadian history. For it to be a family piece is just icing on the cake.
I don`t deal in values, as most here know. This is for two reasons, I guess, but mostly it is because I really can`t follow what the market might be doing this month..... and I really HATE to pass out bad information. So I limit myself to commenting on the history, design, operation and feeding of these beasts.
As to The Terrible Secret Knowledge, I would mention that these Carbines have one VERY unusual feature to them which cannot be seen from outside of the rifle. What it is precisely, I am not going to say because that would be, effectively, handing out a RECIPE for building a dozen or so fakes, fakes which then could be sold to unsuspecting purchasers as genuine, original chunks of Canadiana..... for better than 2 grand apiece.
Pretty decent return on a $50 investment, wouldn`t you say? Would YOU buy one, knowing that I had broadcast exactly what makes one of these DIFFERENT from anything else that ever came out of Enfield? Likely not, at least without really decent provenance, which is precisely what a LOT of family pieces and hidden-away antiques cannot provide. The policy of "withholding valuable knowledge from the Multitude" is, like a sword, double-edged: it can cut both ways.
I'm still not gonna say exactly what that is, but I am willing to stake half of my next-month's pension cheque on THIS baby being The Real Thing, exactly as posited by the OP.
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The owner must be VERY proud to have such a perfect specimen of this very rare piece of Canadian history. For it to be a family piece is just icing on the cake.
I don`t deal in values, as most here know. This is for two reasons, I guess, but mostly it is because I really can`t follow what the market might be doing this month..... and I really HATE to pass out bad information. So I limit myself to commenting on the history, design, operation and feeding of these beasts.
As to The Terrible Secret Knowledge, I would mention that these Carbines have one VERY unusual feature to them which cannot be seen from outside of the rifle. What it is precisely, I am not going to say because that would be, effectively, handing out a RECIPE for building a dozen or so fakes, fakes which then could be sold to unsuspecting purchasers as genuine, original chunks of Canadiana..... for better than 2 grand apiece.
Pretty decent return on a $50 investment, wouldn`t you say? Would YOU buy one, knowing that I had broadcast exactly what makes one of these DIFFERENT from anything else that ever came out of Enfield? Likely not, at least without really decent provenance, which is precisely what a LOT of family pieces and hidden-away antiques cannot provide. The policy of "withholding valuable knowledge from the Multitude" is, like a sword, double-edged: it can cut both ways.
I'm still not gonna say exactly what that is, but I am willing to stake half of my next-month's pension cheque on THIS baby being The Real Thing, exactly as posited by the OP.
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Well, I knew that one was going to cause a bit of contriversy. One member quoted part of what I wrote, and made sure he put some of it in BOLD print. However, I think he missed the important part of those two paragraphs.
And, we keep notes on these things. I have seven loose leaf binders of these little things that I have found over the years. And, this is why these forums are good, because others like me will be more than happy to identify or help someone out, because they have the information collected over many years.
The point is that we do tend to share a lot of information and advice based on our knowledge and experience that we gained over the years. And we do pass this along to people who ask and need to identify or clarify a firearm.
Now that we have some good pictures we can give an honest opinion.
By all outside appearances, I think that this firearm has all the earmarks of a RNWMP Carbine. The condition is very good for the 100 plus years since it was sold out of Service. It appears to have the correct bolt, magazine and all the markings where you expect to see them based on my handling and examination of several of the Carbines that I have had the chance to look at.
If it turns out to be an authentic RNWMP Carbine it should be in the $1500 area at the low end, and probably about $3000 in reasonable condition. If in really good condition, the price skyrockets from there.f The other factior is how bad someone wants it, or the need to fill a hole in their collection.
If you are buying it, I would get all the documentation that you can. This is known as "Provenance" and can add several hundred of dollars to the value. Notarized written history provided by the seller is good, and if this one was from an Estate or Family Sale, then a History of the previous Owner and his association with the particular firearm should be documented.
Good luck on this one.
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And, we keep notes on these things. I have seven loose leaf binders of these little things that I have found over the years. And, this is why these forums are good, because others like me will be more than happy to identify or help someone out, because they have the information collected over many years.
The point is that we do tend to share a lot of information and advice based on our knowledge and experience that we gained over the years. And we do pass this along to people who ask and need to identify or clarify a firearm.
Now that we have some good pictures we can give an honest opinion.
By all outside appearances, I think that this firearm has all the earmarks of a RNWMP Carbine. The condition is very good for the 100 plus years since it was sold out of Service. It appears to have the correct bolt, magazine and all the markings where you expect to see them based on my handling and examination of several of the Carbines that I have had the chance to look at.
If it turns out to be an authentic RNWMP Carbine it should be in the $1500 area at the low end, and probably about $3000 in reasonable condition. If in really good condition, the price skyrockets from there.f The other factior is how bad someone wants it, or the need to fill a hole in their collection.
If you are buying it, I would get all the documentation that you can. This is known as "Provenance" and can add several hundred of dollars to the value. Notarized written history provided by the seller is good, and if this one was from an Estate or Family Sale, then a History of the previous Owner and his association with the particular firearm should be documented.
Good luck on this one.
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No Sir, the last paragraph does or adds nothing.
Everyone, have a good read of what RRCo. posted and let it sink in.
I could not have stated it better.
I see this arrogance all the time within the firearms community and it grows tiring on me.
I call it like I see it.
We have a new generation in front of us.
I was just at our gun club last night showing a buddy my newly acquired 1896 Long Lee.
Another fellow collector had along with him a few of his No1 MK3's.
The interest that was generated was amazing.
The history and fine details are what counts.
It generates an interest beyond belief in these old warhorses.
RRCo. wrote;
Well said, Sir.
Who am I you ask?
I am no professional teacher or historian.
I am a Letter Carrier for Canada Post Corporation with a deep intrest and regard for Canadian Military History and firearms.
I bend over backwards and sideways to encourage growing minds. (young & old)
Sorry guys,
Rant over and out.
X2
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The serial number 1079 is not listed as a carbine that was in service with the NWMP.
However, I see the roundel with RNWMP. so I will now add that one to the list.
Anyone else have one with a NWMP or RWNMP roundel in the stock that wished to share the number, please PM me.
Thanks
Problem solved with one photo of the roundel and markings.
However, I see the roundel with RNWMP. so I will now add that one to the list.
Anyone else have one with a NWMP or RWNMP roundel in the stock that wished to share the number, please PM me.
Thanks
Problem solved with one photo of the roundel and markings.
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Number 45 has a mis-matched bolt, has been sporterized, and has a cracked receiver.
There are two holes in the forestock. One for the mounting of a sling, and the rearmost one, in the stock under the rear sight, was where the studs for the rearsight protector was mounted. This was usually a leather piece with two holes in it that the studs went into to keep it in place.
The forestock pictures of the OP's Carbine are a bit too far away to see if these studs are still remaining or have been removed. Perhaps a close-up picture of the rear sight and forestock area please?
It also looks like the OP's Carbine has been varnished. If this is the case, I would strongly recommend Professional restoration to preserve the markings and original contours of the stock. Using sandpaper, the wrong chemical remover or doing a poor refinishing job can cut the value in half.
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Number 45 has a mis-matched bolt, has been sporterized, and has a cracked receiver.
There are two holes in the forestock. One for the mounting of a sling, and the rearmost one, in the stock under the rear sight, was where the studs for the rearsight protector was mounted. This was usually a leather piece with two holes in it that the studs went into to keep it in place.
The forestock pictures of the OP's Carbine are a bit too far away to see if these studs are still remaining or have been removed. Perhaps a close-up picture of the rear sight and forestock area please?
It also looks like the OP's Carbine has been varnished. If this is the case, I would strongly recommend Professional restoration to preserve the markings and original contours of the stock. Using sandpaper, the wrong chemical remover or doing a poor refinishing job can cut the value in half.
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Note that the 550 number is only 7 digits away from the OP's Carbine number of 557.
This one came from Alberta. The hole in the stock were quite commonly seen in rifles. This allowed a sling to be attached with thongs.
The stock disk is "D" Division. Not the present RCMP "D" Division of Manitoba, but the Fort Macleod, Alberta to Fort Steele, B.C. "D" Division of the RNWMP.
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Note that the 550 number is only 7 digits away from the OP's Carbine number of 557.
This one came from Alberta. The hole in the stock were quite commonly seen in rifles. This allowed a sling to be attached with thongs.
The stock disk is "D" Division. Not the present RCMP "D" Division of Manitoba, but the Fort Macleod, Alberta to Fort Steele, B.C. "D" Division of the RNWMP.
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Buffdog & Wheaty, I do understand your positions, I think, but as Smellie said, it cuts both ways. All I can say is, gents, don't let your knowledge die with you. Keep those critical little kernels unpublished if you want, but find a good "apprentice" or two to pass them on to! As for the rest, write it, type it, voice record it, just don't let it be lost.
I saw carbine barrel No43 stuck onto the remains of Lee Enfield MkI a while back. Where the rest of it was I have no idea.
I saw carbine barrel No43 stuck onto the remains of Lee Enfield MkI a while back. Where the rest of it was I have no idea.
I was told about 60 years ago: buy a gun, buy a book, which I have done. Most of the info I have accumulated is published in books. I know Smellie has a HUGE pile of books as well. I recall when he dropped in for supper when heading west 25 plus years ago and the old station wagon was dragging on the asphalt with books. God!!! How times flies. Also, I think my book credits are around 30 now, so as you see, I have no problem in sharing data. What I do object to is the guy who calls you and wants some info on X rifle and is a "serious collector". Well this is his lucky day....I worked on the book and the publisher send me 5 extra copies which I will sell him for less than half price. "Pay for a book...no way, I NEVER buy books"...click...buzzzzzzzzz
Right Smellie!!!
nuff said.......
the old curmudgeon is back in the den.
Right Smellie!!!
nuff said.......
the old curmudgeon is back in the den.
Interesting markings on the butt there, Buffdog.
I have a butt circa 1896 similarly marked to Mlilitia and Defence.
The disc is/was also marked 3.D. 175. I led myself to believe that it was once in service with the Third Dragoons.
I am scrambling to find some pics that I downloaded of a similar 1896 Cav carbine that had identical markings to mine, also 3.D. but less than a hundred in sequence from the number on the disc. I'll post when I find.
Your thoughts?
I have a butt circa 1896 similarly marked to Mlilitia and Defence.
The disc is/was also marked 3.D. 175. I led myself to believe that it was once in service with the Third Dragoons.
I am scrambling to find some pics that I downloaded of a similar 1896 Cav carbine that had identical markings to mine, also 3.D. but less than a hundred in sequence from the number on the disc. I'll post when I find.
Your thoughts?
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Disk markings
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As to stock disk markings, the RNWMP was, for all intents and purposes, a Canadian Government Paramilitary Force, armed and equipped by the same people who outfitted the Regular military. If you look at the original documents pertaining to the RNWMP, the directive to Police and keep the Peace is well down on the list of Duties that the RNWMP were supposed to do. It was not the primary Duty.
I have been told by a more advanced collector who specialized in RNWMP / RCMP items and history that the disks were Force markings.
In the case of the OP's rifle, "H" Division was one of two RNWMP Divisions that were stationed in the North-West Territory and the Yukon. The other one was "B" Division. These Geographic Areas was changed after the Force was renamed the RCMP and the present "H" Division is Nova Scotia.
As my primary interests in Collecting are the Lee Enfield system, the Ross, and the Swedish Mauser m/96 FSR Target rifles, the interest in the RNWMP Carbine is more the firearm itself than the RNWMP or RCMP affiliation, and I am going on what I was told by a more knowledgeable collector as to the stock disk markings.
To quote RRCo., "Buffdog & Wheaty, I do understand your positions, I think, but as Smellie said, it cuts both ways. All I can say is, gents, don't let your knowledge die with you. Keep those critical little kernels unpublished if you want, but find a good "apprentice" or two to pass them on to! As for the rest, write it, type it, voice record it, just don't let it be lost."
At present I have over 900 books on firearms, history and other related subjects. There are 11 books on the Mounties and RNWMP included in that number. I have well over 300 various weapons manuals either solid copy or on computer. A while ago, a Member with a Mauser K43 rifle equipped with a ZF-4 scope on it posted a thread here, and I sent him by PM, a copy of the German Luftwaffe Manual on this exact combination. Another Member also sent me a PM asking for a copy, and he was sent one also. Sure hope they can find someone who can read German!
I also have seven loose leaf notebooks of notes gathered over the last 50 years or so. SMELLIE and I suck up coffee about once a week, and we bounce things off each other. (Someday I might even let out the story of SMELLIE and the Number ONE Maxim machine gun, and the Manual he wrote for the early Maxim Machine Gun using his notebooks.)
All these books, firearms and such are documented, along with prices paid, current values, and other notes to particular firearms that are of historical interest. There are provisions for these to be passed on or preserved. I probably should not mention to SMELLIE that he will get some of it if he outlives me, or my coffee might taste a bit funny next time I drop in there.
WHEATY is right about the books. It is not what you know but rather knowing where to find the information you wish to know. Todays enthusiasts have an enormous advantage over what we old farts had---the Internet. Unfortunately, the Internet also has a lot of dis-information that are more like Urban Legends than closer to the truth. Everyone KNOWS those old Ross rifles are dangerous and will blow up on you if you ever take even the mildest loaded .303 cartridge near one.
But, we old farts seem to go onto the range with a good Ross rifle, and everyone first shys away because they have heard the "truth" about the Ross. After we fire a few rounds downrange and people see that there is no smoking crater and a few teeth left to mark our demise, they edge a bit closer and finally some brave individual asks if they could fire a few rounds out of one. After they fire a couple, the smiles come out, and the next question is usually, "Where can I get one of these?" This is why we tend to take extra ammo to the range when we play around with some of this older stuff.
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As to stock disk markings, the RNWMP was, for all intents and purposes, a Canadian Government Paramilitary Force, armed and equipped by the same people who outfitted the Regular military. If you look at the original documents pertaining to the RNWMP, the directive to Police and keep the Peace is well down on the list of Duties that the RNWMP were supposed to do. It was not the primary Duty.
I have been told by a more advanced collector who specialized in RNWMP / RCMP items and history that the disks were Force markings.
In the case of the OP's rifle, "H" Division was one of two RNWMP Divisions that were stationed in the North-West Territory and the Yukon. The other one was "B" Division. These Geographic Areas was changed after the Force was renamed the RCMP and the present "H" Division is Nova Scotia.
As my primary interests in Collecting are the Lee Enfield system, the Ross, and the Swedish Mauser m/96 FSR Target rifles, the interest in the RNWMP Carbine is more the firearm itself than the RNWMP or RCMP affiliation, and I am going on what I was told by a more knowledgeable collector as to the stock disk markings.
To quote RRCo., "Buffdog & Wheaty, I do understand your positions, I think, but as Smellie said, it cuts both ways. All I can say is, gents, don't let your knowledge die with you. Keep those critical little kernels unpublished if you want, but find a good "apprentice" or two to pass them on to! As for the rest, write it, type it, voice record it, just don't let it be lost."
At present I have over 900 books on firearms, history and other related subjects. There are 11 books on the Mounties and RNWMP included in that number. I have well over 300 various weapons manuals either solid copy or on computer. A while ago, a Member with a Mauser K43 rifle equipped with a ZF-4 scope on it posted a thread here, and I sent him by PM, a copy of the German Luftwaffe Manual on this exact combination. Another Member also sent me a PM asking for a copy, and he was sent one also. Sure hope they can find someone who can read German!
I also have seven loose leaf notebooks of notes gathered over the last 50 years or so. SMELLIE and I suck up coffee about once a week, and we bounce things off each other. (Someday I might even let out the story of SMELLIE and the Number ONE Maxim machine gun, and the Manual he wrote for the early Maxim Machine Gun using his notebooks.)
All these books, firearms and such are documented, along with prices paid, current values, and other notes to particular firearms that are of historical interest. There are provisions for these to be passed on or preserved. I probably should not mention to SMELLIE that he will get some of it if he outlives me, or my coffee might taste a bit funny next time I drop in there.
WHEATY is right about the books. It is not what you know but rather knowing where to find the information you wish to know. Todays enthusiasts have an enormous advantage over what we old farts had---the Internet. Unfortunately, the Internet also has a lot of dis-information that are more like Urban Legends than closer to the truth. Everyone KNOWS those old Ross rifles are dangerous and will blow up on you if you ever take even the mildest loaded .303 cartridge near one.
But, we old farts seem to go onto the range with a good Ross rifle, and everyone first shys away because they have heard the "truth" about the Ross. After we fire a few rounds downrange and people see that there is no smoking crater and a few teeth left to mark our demise, they edge a bit closer and finally some brave individual asks if they could fire a few rounds out of one. After they fire a couple, the smiles come out, and the next question is usually, "Where can I get one of these?" This is why we tend to take extra ammo to the range when we play around with some of this older stuff.
.
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Thanks Buffdog.
I gather all manner of parts and parts guns, never know the provenance of anything, except when there is an identifiable marking.
So 3.D. might not be Third Dragoons, but more likely Third District on an M&D marked stock?
I gather all manner of parts and parts guns, never know the provenance of anything, except when there is an identifiable marking.
So 3.D. might not be Third Dragoons, but more likely Third District on an M&D marked stock?
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@RRCo:
I think most of us are more than willing to share our knowledge, but there is a very large problem with that which some of us don't like to talk about because it raises too many hackles.
WHY are people here?
I am here to learn more, to stare in utter awe at things I can't afford or can't find, to learn more about what was built, for whom, and how it differs from all the others built. Just in the last couple of days, for example, I have learned that Peruvian 1891 Mausers were marked as "Mauser Argentino" on the receiver-rail but had a Peruvian crest on the receiver ring. I haven't encountered this before because (1) they are just too pricey now, (2) there were no photos published when they were imported and, (3) I was young enough and dumb enough when they were $26.95 that I didn't want to put 3 days' pay into something that I knew nothing about. Now, of course, Mr. Ball has produced his wonderful coffee-table books, which I am told now are in a 4th edition. I didn't buy the first edition because I learned very little from it, but I am thinking that now could be the time to update my library. Good thing that pension day is only a week or so.....
But I wonder why other people are here. For example, the guy who has been a "Member" for the last 8 or 9 years, has a grand total of 16 Posts and a Trader Rating of 1762: he is here to make MONEY.... and that's all. What he is interested in is (a) what is the lowest lowball price he might have to pay for it, and (b) how high can he raise that price and still get a fast turnover. He isn't interested in the design, the feeding, the history, what makes that particular firearm representative to its period.....or an anomaly from it.... unless that knowledge can reduce the buying price or raise the selling price of the item.
And it's much the same with some people who write books. I contributed to a couple of books by the late Peter Labbett. I got a "thank you" for my (admittedly small) contributions. But I also rendered fairly major help to a fellow whose "authoritative" tome graces many of your bookshelves. My research was rewritten and published under his name (typical writer: file off the serial numbers and get paid for it!). I didn't receive so much as a mention in the janitorial section and now have to save up 90 bucks for a copy of the book. Oh well, exactly the same information was given to the CFB Shilo Royal Canadian Artillery Museum, to the Pattern Room and to the Imperial War Museum. They all said "Thank you", which is all I asked. But I learned a lesson.
Those of us with the knowledge are willing and happy to help serious collectors and students of firearms and firearm design and history.
It's just that some of us are getting damned tired of being USED by people whose only interest is making more money..... for them.
This is not a slap at dealers. There are dealers on here, every day, who ask questions. But they also ANSWER questions. They are CONTRIBUTING. Their contributions often are at the expense of running their businesses, but they are making these contributions anyway, helping to make this hobby the most interesting in the world. They are VALUED for this. We NEED them and we NEED their expertise. Personally, I am happy that some of them put up with some of my idiotic cracks and even take the time to correct bad information when it comes out of this addled mind of mine. And if my recollections and thoughts can help some of them, then so be it. We are helping each other and, hopefully, we all will profit in one way or another. And we will all continue to profit, just so long as it remains a two-way street.
But all TAKE and no GIVE deserves no GIVING TO, at least in my opinion.
Sorry for the rant.
I'll go and stroke the cat for a while now.
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I think most of us are more than willing to share our knowledge, but there is a very large problem with that which some of us don't like to talk about because it raises too many hackles.
WHY are people here?
I am here to learn more, to stare in utter awe at things I can't afford or can't find, to learn more about what was built, for whom, and how it differs from all the others built. Just in the last couple of days, for example, I have learned that Peruvian 1891 Mausers were marked as "Mauser Argentino" on the receiver-rail but had a Peruvian crest on the receiver ring. I haven't encountered this before because (1) they are just too pricey now, (2) there were no photos published when they were imported and, (3) I was young enough and dumb enough when they were $26.95 that I didn't want to put 3 days' pay into something that I knew nothing about. Now, of course, Mr. Ball has produced his wonderful coffee-table books, which I am told now are in a 4th edition. I didn't buy the first edition because I learned very little from it, but I am thinking that now could be the time to update my library. Good thing that pension day is only a week or so.....
But I wonder why other people are here. For example, the guy who has been a "Member" for the last 8 or 9 years, has a grand total of 16 Posts and a Trader Rating of 1762: he is here to make MONEY.... and that's all. What he is interested in is (a) what is the lowest lowball price he might have to pay for it, and (b) how high can he raise that price and still get a fast turnover. He isn't interested in the design, the feeding, the history, what makes that particular firearm representative to its period.....or an anomaly from it.... unless that knowledge can reduce the buying price or raise the selling price of the item.
And it's much the same with some people who write books. I contributed to a couple of books by the late Peter Labbett. I got a "thank you" for my (admittedly small) contributions. But I also rendered fairly major help to a fellow whose "authoritative" tome graces many of your bookshelves. My research was rewritten and published under his name (typical writer: file off the serial numbers and get paid for it!). I didn't receive so much as a mention in the janitorial section and now have to save up 90 bucks for a copy of the book. Oh well, exactly the same information was given to the CFB Shilo Royal Canadian Artillery Museum, to the Pattern Room and to the Imperial War Museum. They all said "Thank you", which is all I asked. But I learned a lesson.
Those of us with the knowledge are willing and happy to help serious collectors and students of firearms and firearm design and history.
It's just that some of us are getting damned tired of being USED by people whose only interest is making more money..... for them.
This is not a slap at dealers. There are dealers on here, every day, who ask questions. But they also ANSWER questions. They are CONTRIBUTING. Their contributions often are at the expense of running their businesses, but they are making these contributions anyway, helping to make this hobby the most interesting in the world. They are VALUED for this. We NEED them and we NEED their expertise. Personally, I am happy that some of them put up with some of my idiotic cracks and even take the time to correct bad information when it comes out of this addled mind of mine. And if my recollections and thoughts can help some of them, then so be it. We are helping each other and, hopefully, we all will profit in one way or another. And we will all continue to profit, just so long as it remains a two-way street.
But all TAKE and no GIVE deserves no GIVING TO, at least in my opinion.
Sorry for the rant.
I'll go and stroke the cat for a while now.
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The way it was explained to me was the 3rd. Squadron, D Division, Rifle Number 78 on the Force's Inventory.
With the OP's Carbine with an "H" on it, the above seems feasible.
The absence of the RNWMP Roundel could mean that this was a replacement stock. When we have been collecting a fairly long time, we tend to never say "never" when making statements like "They never made one like that." Sure as rainfall on your picnic, the next week someone will post a picture of his great grandfathers rifle that was brought back from some obscure War in Outer Whatever and has been in the family ever since. The pictures then show a direct contradiction to what you have stated.
So, we tend to look at "what if" scenarios. Just to get everyone thinking, I will give one "What if" here. The RNWMP sent two Squadrons to South Africa during the Boer War. "What if" a rifle stock was damaged there. A replacement Carbine stock could easily be taken from Canadian Military stores and fitted to the damaged rifle. The butt stock disk transferred to the new stock, and you have an RNWMP Carbine without the RNWMP Roundel. It is still on strength as rifle number ### but one part has been replaced out of necessity.
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That info on the disc markings is a little nugget of gold that I will add to my notes.
Sherlock Holmes deerstalker hat and magnifying glass are standard kit with these old war horses. Often it feels like detective work trying to figure out a rifle.
At gun shows my buddies go grabbing for the better examples to upgrade their collection. Not me, I am the guy rummaging through the old beaters and sporters. Some of them are so covered in markings that they can be read like a book.
I do have a vivid imagination, so ya, I understand the 'what if' scenarios. Never say never.
Sherlock Holmes deerstalker hat and magnifying glass are standard kit with these old war horses. Often it feels like detective work trying to figure out a rifle.
At gun shows my buddies go grabbing for the better examples to upgrade their collection. Not me, I am the guy rummaging through the old beaters and sporters. Some of them are so covered in markings that they can be read like a book.
I do have a vivid imagination, so ya, I understand the 'what if' scenarios. Never say never.
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Rifles and History
If you want to have some real fun at detective work on History, you will find the Swedish FSR target rifles really interesting. They can have a name and/or event on them, and when you can find out about one individual person who used and shot this rifle you have really struck paydirt.
Here is one example. A Swedish 1902 Carl Gustafs m/96 FSR target rifle that was put up as a prize rifle not once, but twice.
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If you want to have some real fun at detective work on History, you will find the Swedish FSR target rifles really interesting. They can have a name and/or event on them, and when you can find out about one individual person who used and shot this rifle you have really struck paydirt.
Here is one example. A Swedish 1902 Carl Gustafs m/96 FSR target rifle that was put up as a prize rifle not once, but twice.
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I can't disagree Smellie, we're all here for different reasons, and usually quite a few. Some folks mostly take, some mostly give, like everywhere. Plagiarism is never nice, but there is a lot of it around. Ingratitude and misappropriation is worse, but the best cure for that is publicity. So "cast not the pearls before swine" or sow the seed and see some of it "return a hundredfold" knowing that more is going to feed the crows?
The beauty of this medium is that we can all connect across time and distance; one of the pitfalls is that we often don't know who we're connecting with, or even that we are, but we still are, for better or worse. You would easily win the MVP ballot, which reminds me: you must know someone in film production; how about some videos one of these days? Even the most bookish of us enjoys a good film clip. It's a visual age they say, and it's one of the best recruiting tools out there. Quite seriously, I think we might be surprised how far such a series could go, if done well, with Canadian history mixed in. Why not start with "Arms of the Canadian West" or something like that? "Arms of the Riel Rebellion", "Arms of the Mounted Police", "Arms of the CEF"...the list goes on. There, I don't mind if the crows get that, as long as they fly with it.
I was reading this thread and I would believe that the roundels are 4th Hussars and 3rd Dragoons. Both were Militia cavalry units on the order of battle prior to WW1.
http://www.swiftandbored.com/rcac/disband.htm
The M&D mark indicates Militia and Defence of course. I read that 1,000 of the LE Carbines were bought from the Militia surplus stocks in 1914 as the Army had been issued the Ross.
The fire of 1912 had destroyed the RNWMP Ross rifles and the LM and Winchesters were shot out.
Just my 2 cents of course but I will ask Don K.
http://www.swiftandbored.com/rcac/disband.htm
The M&D mark indicates Militia and Defence of course. I read that 1,000 of the LE Carbines were bought from the Militia surplus stocks in 1914 as the Army had been issued the Ross.
The fire of 1912 had destroyed the RNWMP Ross rifles and the LM and Winchesters were shot out.
Just my 2 cents of course but I will ask Don K.
