NAA 1911 Pistol, real or fake??

bellero

bellero

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I just came across this on the net. I'm no expert on 1911's but something about this NAA seems fishy to me. I hope the 1911's gurus will chime in. I've heard of NAA and Singer copies but I never saw any pictures of such copies.

Here's the description from the website along with a few pics:

''North America Arms Company M1911 Pistol, serial # 81, caliber 45 ACP, 5” barrel with strong rifling but has peppery pitting between the lands, pistol has the proper slide marking complete with the word “Limited” being printed in gradually smaller letters, hammer is smooth which is correct, the pistol is numbered on the top rear of the left side of the slide behind the serrations also on the left side of frame under grips and on the left side of the trigger, I believe this pistol was restored at some point and it retains around 85% blue finish that’s thinning, also during the restoration process the slide markings while correct I believe were refreshed as they now appear engraved not roll stamped, the checkered diamond walnut grips rate excellent, when you consider the rarity of this pistol being able to afford one isn’t the issue you need to be able to find one and this one will definitely be the centerpoint in any Military Pistol Collection. Price: $9195.00''
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Here's what I know about NAA:

On March 29th, 1911, the Browning-designed, Colt-produced .45 Automatic pistol, was selected as the official sidearm of the Armed Forces of U.S.A., and named Model 1911.

When we entered the Great War, the U.S. government had purchased some 140,000 M1911 pistols from both Colt and Springfield Armory. The Armory tooled up in 1913 to make M1911s and help fill initial orders. Altogether some 31,000 M1911s were built at Springfield prior to the U.S. entry into World War I. To meet wartime requirements, they made 45,000 more, all in 1918.

Guns made for these production runs were all stamped UNITED STATES PROPERTY on the frame. The slide carried the inscription MODEL OF 1911 U.S. ARMY. Production runs increased when the World War I started and continued to increase through 1918. By May 1918, it had increased to 1,000 per day. The summer months of 1918 saw an increase to 2,200 per day.

To meet the needs of our expanding armed forces, 1917 planners estimated that a total of 765,000 pistols would be required. The estimate was later revised upward, first to 1.3 million and then to 2.7 million.

Filling the projected needs meant that pistols would have to be made by contractors other than Colt. Thus orders were placed with Remington-UMC, Winchester, Burroughs Adding Machine Co., Lanston Monotype Machine Co., National Cash Register Co., A.J. Savage Munitions Co., Savage Arms Co., and two Canadian firms, Caron Brothers Mfg. Co., and North American Arms Co., Ltd. Of those firms, only Remington-UMC delivered any meaningful quantity (22,000 of 150,000 ordered). North American did make some pistols, but the total was probably less than 100.

There're valued between 8k and 10k if you can find one. Reports that some scammers made copys of the NAA to make hi $$$.
 
This NAA example actually looks pretty decent. The small parts appear correct, flat smooth mainspring housing without lanyard loop, serated [as opposed to checkered] slide stop with undercut, the thumb safety is contoured right, the hammer is the "long" type, however it should be lightly checkered not smooth. Even the slide script looks correct for the examples I've seen.

Here is a reference website that has a 1911 gallery, including a NAA example with closeup pics of some of the critical areas for comparison:

http://www.coolgunsite.com/

On the left toolbar click "1911 Gallery" then scroll down to the pics of the "1918 North American 1911". It is actually number "87" so very near this example is production. There were about 100 examples of this particular "contract" 1911 mfg in 1918.

Likely if WWI had lasted into 1919 or 1920 we might have seen NAA go into full blown production, and a production run of several thousand examples to enjoy. As well as other firearms companys making 1911's under contract, too. :cool:

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NAA.
 
Thanks guys,

The slide markings looked a bit suspicious to me, especially the word ''limited'' being in smaller fonts. I just looked at a high resolution NAA 1911 picture from the Karl Karash collection and the fonts are also a bit smaller for the word limited. It's just that I read a few stories on fake high value 1911's. Also what the description text said about the markings looking more engraved than roll stamped triggered me off a little.
Did anyone here actually ever saw an expertly done 1911 copy?

I don't intend to buy this one anyway (unless I win the lottery in a near future) but here's the link if anyone's is interested.

www .rickysinc.com/Web%20Pages/military_pistols.htm
 
Looking again and comparing to the Kark Karash pics the "MANUFACTURED BY looks very suspect. The Q and the R's look correct.

Hard to say.

bellero said:
Thanks guys,

The slide markings looked a bit suspicious to me, especially the word ''limited'' being in smaller fonts. I just looked at a high resolution NAA 1911 picture from the Karl Karash collection and the fonts are also a bit smaller for the word limited. It's just that I read a few stories on fake high value 1911's. Also what the description text said about the markings looking more engraved than roll stamped triggered me off a little.
Did anyone here actually ever saw an expertly done 1911 copy?

I don't intend to buy this one anyway (unless I win the lottery in a near future) but here's the link if anyone's is interested.

www .rickysinc.com/Web%20Pages/military_pistols.htm
Click to expand...
 
In this case I think I'd want to know who the last owner was and the civillian history of the pistol. I'd also want to know the insurance history of the pistol - if it's real, it's always been valuable (well, the last 50 years or so) and someone will have insured it. I'd also consider having an expert look at it. This is probably the most collectible type of one of the most collected pistols made, it would pay to check with an expert.
 
Too bad it was not number 51 - that was seized by the Montreal Police about 20 years ago as it had been in the possession of "dubious characters" in the drug trade. Never heard what happened to it - anyone?
Dr J.
 
T&G said:
Too bad it was not number 51 - that was seized by the Montreal Police about 20 years ago as it had been in the possession of "dubious characters" in the drug trade. Never heard what happened to it - anyone?
Dr J.
Click to expand...

I heard this story many times but I don't know about it's veracity. Anyone got a link or article that speak about it or is it another urban legend? The police must keep some kind of records of the guns they seized or destructed?
 
It's a Norinco.....:p

Seriously though the individually engraved letters would make me very suspect as well, pics of others are clearly roll stamped........but I likely won't be shopping for an original NAA anytime soon:rolleyes:
 
bellero said:
I heard this story many times but I don't know about it's veracity. Anyone got a link or article that speak about it or is it another urban legend? The police must keep some kind of records of the guns they seized or destructed?
Click to expand...

No urban legend, I saw the actual CBC video report at the time, and now that I think about it, the officer showing the gun said something about sending it to the War Museum in Ottawa. But my memory is old and suspicious.
Dr J
 
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