Expendable Nate
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
there so cheap how accurate are they? can i free float it? has any one used one for a project? i want peoples point of views
nagant???
- Thread starter Expendable Nate
- Start date
I don't think they are really suited to a project. If you sink money into it, is it still cheap? I think you will find it best to enjoy it as it comes. For $100-$150 it is a bargain for sure. I've had a couple and with handloads I've never had one that wouldn't shoot under 2" at 100yds. I think they are best enjoyed when used with cast bullets ringing the gong out to 200yds.
I have no idea what a 'nagant' might be; my dictionary doesn't have this word.
On the other hand, the word "Nagant" refers to a family of Belgian-designed REVOLVERS, of which the most notable was the "gas-seal" revolver adopted by Imperial Russia and manufactured for many years in Russia and then in the Soviet Union. Many of these are currently available in North America.
Being a revolver, the barrel generally is surrounded by air while it is being fired, so there is no necessity of working on the thing to make it 'float'.
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Or are you referring to the Russian-designed MOISIN-Nagant rifle?
This is a Russian-designed and -manufactured bolt-action rifle which uses a MAGAZINE designed by the Belgians Emile and Leon Nagant in combination with a bolt action designed by Sergei Ivanovich Moisin. It was adopted by the Russian Empire as the Model of 1891 rifle in the unique "3-line" calibre which now is referred to as 7.62x54Rimmed.
These also are available in North America at very reasonable prices.
They were manufactured with free-floating barrels, although warpage has taken its toll over the years and any given rifle might require being cleaned up to refloat the barrel. Most of them benefit from a bedding-point at the forward end of the stock. Actions should be bedded solid and to the front of the chamber.
Apart from the fact that the actions are stiff and (to some people) they are ugly as sin itself, there is nothing wrong with a Moisin-Nagant rifle. Often, it is not difficult to have one shooting just over 1 MOA off the sandbags, but you have to be able to hold it to do that and you must be using handloads. You can not expect that kind of accuracy with ANY factory or surplus ammunition.
The people who built these rifles knew what they were doing. It is best to keep the rifles as close as possible to their "issue" condition. Any "project" you can think of likely will just detract from the value of the rifle and destroy yet another historical artifact.
As friend Red Iron has pointed out, these rifles can be made to shoot very well with cast-bullet handloads. Try 13 or 14 grains of Red Dot shotgun powder with a 180-grain cast bullet, using old wheelweight metal for casting. Red Iron likely has his own suggestions, so I suggest you talk to him.
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BTW, try turning the Spell-Checker on your computer "ON". Also, look for a key marked "Shift"; it enables you to use capital letters.
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On the other hand, the word "Nagant" refers to a family of Belgian-designed REVOLVERS, of which the most notable was the "gas-seal" revolver adopted by Imperial Russia and manufactured for many years in Russia and then in the Soviet Union. Many of these are currently available in North America.
Being a revolver, the barrel generally is surrounded by air while it is being fired, so there is no necessity of working on the thing to make it 'float'.
.................................................................................................
Or are you referring to the Russian-designed MOISIN-Nagant rifle?
This is a Russian-designed and -manufactured bolt-action rifle which uses a MAGAZINE designed by the Belgians Emile and Leon Nagant in combination with a bolt action designed by Sergei Ivanovich Moisin. It was adopted by the Russian Empire as the Model of 1891 rifle in the unique "3-line" calibre which now is referred to as 7.62x54Rimmed.
These also are available in North America at very reasonable prices.
They were manufactured with free-floating barrels, although warpage has taken its toll over the years and any given rifle might require being cleaned up to refloat the barrel. Most of them benefit from a bedding-point at the forward end of the stock. Actions should be bedded solid and to the front of the chamber.
Apart from the fact that the actions are stiff and (to some people) they are ugly as sin itself, there is nothing wrong with a Moisin-Nagant rifle. Often, it is not difficult to have one shooting just over 1 MOA off the sandbags, but you have to be able to hold it to do that and you must be using handloads. You can not expect that kind of accuracy with ANY factory or surplus ammunition.
The people who built these rifles knew what they were doing. It is best to keep the rifles as close as possible to their "issue" condition. Any "project" you can think of likely will just detract from the value of the rifle and destroy yet another historical artifact.
As friend Red Iron has pointed out, these rifles can be made to shoot very well with cast-bullet handloads. Try 13 or 14 grains of Red Dot shotgun powder with a 180-grain cast bullet, using old wheelweight metal for casting. Red Iron likely has his own suggestions, so I suggest you talk to him.
.
BTW, try turning the Spell-Checker on your computer "ON". Also, look for a key marked "Shift"; it enables you to use capital letters.
.
Expendable Nate
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Thanks for SOME useful info I don't care about its historical value I'm curious if this rather accurate and cheap rifle can be made to shoot better at a reasonable expense
Expendable Nate
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
And to confirm I meant the moisin nagant in. 7.62x54
I think you will find that most of the people on this forum DO care, rather a lot, about the historical value of these rifles. That's why we restore them instead of butcher them.
That's why they are in this forum.
BTW, what's so terrible about a rifle which will shoot just over an inch at 100 yards, so terrible indeed that YOU have to mess with it? If you know more about these things than the people who designed and built them, perhaps you should write a manual for the rest of us to read.
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That's why they are in this forum.
BTW, what's so terrible about a rifle which will shoot just over an inch at 100 yards, so terrible indeed that YOU have to mess with it? If you know more about these things than the people who designed and built them, perhaps you should write a manual for the rest of us to read.
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Expendable Nate
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
No need to be smart I was just asking questions which this is for and if u have nothing more useful to add kindly move on
Cheers
Cheers
Expendable Nate
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Which is what this forum is for
Expendable Nate
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
And I don't see how free floating the barrel would butcher it
Hey Nate,
This forum is for those that enjoy milsurps in their original form. Dedicated to those that want to preserve history. Now, any milsurp you might have or plan to acquire will be yours to do with as you see fit, but the gentlemen here don't want to hear about plans to turn the history they are interested in, into a "project".
That's about as polite as I can put it.
This forum is for those that enjoy milsurps in their original form. Dedicated to those that want to preserve history. Now, any milsurp you might have or plan to acquire will be yours to do with as you see fit, but the gentlemen here don't want to hear about plans to turn the history they are interested in, into a "project".
That's about as polite as I can put it.
Expendable Nate
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Is there a forum on here that would be more reseptive and it has been recorded in history that marksmen have modified there weapons so what's the harm
Maybe try General Firearms Discussion, although you might find the same attitude there.
I'm not much of a milsurp/history buff myself, but I can understand where they are coming from.I don't think I can make it any more clear than I already have.
- Location
- Ottawa origanally Muskoka
How was it that you intended to free float it?
Bed the action?
Shim the trigger?
Replace the trigger with a $100timney unit?
I have an X friend that hack jobed a 1945 M44 by;
Completely stripping everything, polishing the crap out of everything metal with mother metal polish then using Birchwood casey perma blue.
Counter sunk the muzzle,added a NC star muzzle break,
Acra glass bedded the action,
Replaced the hooded front site with a tru-glo fiber optic pin.....which he had to file the base in order to mount then loctited to hold in place as you could see daylight through the sight base and pin mating surfaces.
Then sanded all the dents and scratches out of it and refinished it.... because he had irreputable proof from the guy he bought it from that it had never been issued.. *face palm*
And after all this, it still only shoots 8" groups @ 100yds.
So in the end it was;
A waste of time
A waste of good $$$
And a waste of a rifle
Probably part of the frustration which can be detected in milsurp fans comes from the fact that, almost all of the time, the following steps can be observed:
1. Bubba buys a cheap, original milsurp rifle, which can (or should, some would argue) be seen as a relic from a troubled past, a way to touch history, an object which should be treated with respect considering what it represents for humanity.
2. Bubba does some permanent alteration to the rifle, because he is certain that the rifle needs it to achieve its full potential.
3. Bubba tries it at the range, and fails to achieve its accuracy goal. But it is the ammunition's fault.
4. Bubba returns to the range with more expensive ammunition. Which took a while to be found. Stupid Russians, everyone should use .308. Same result.
5. Bubba sinks more money in his "budget" build. Goes back to the range. Same result. Next to him, an old fart with an original milsurp rifle, the very same model Bubba started with weeks ago, gets very good results on a target at 100, 200, 300 yards. His rifle is well maintained, properly bedded, and cared for so that the next generation can also touch history and be reminded of all that this rifle went through, or what it represents, or what it means.
Of course, a $110 milsurp rifle sounds like a good deal for a budget build. But maybe a used Stevens 200 in good shape could be a better candidate, for all the right reasons...
1. Bubba buys a cheap, original milsurp rifle, which can (or should, some would argue) be seen as a relic from a troubled past, a way to touch history, an object which should be treated with respect considering what it represents for humanity.
2. Bubba does some permanent alteration to the rifle, because he is certain that the rifle needs it to achieve its full potential.
3. Bubba tries it at the range, and fails to achieve its accuracy goal. But it is the ammunition's fault.
4. Bubba returns to the range with more expensive ammunition. Which took a while to be found. Stupid Russians, everyone should use .308. Same result.
5. Bubba sinks more money in his "budget" build. Goes back to the range. Same result. Next to him, an old fart with an original milsurp rifle, the very same model Bubba started with weeks ago, gets very good results on a target at 100, 200, 300 yards. His rifle is well maintained, properly bedded, and cared for so that the next generation can also touch history and be reminded of all that this rifle went through, or what it represents, or what it means.
Of course, a $110 milsurp rifle sounds like a good deal for a budget build. But maybe a used Stevens 200 in good shape could be a better candidate, for all the right reasons...
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Yes, you can take a $135 Mosin Nagant, drill and tap for a Picitinny rail, mount a Chinese 4x16 mildot scope, add a bipod, and you will have a rifle you can sell for maybe, $150?
This is a MILSURPS Forum here. While buying an inexpensive Mosin Nagant and cutting it up to make it better (maybe) is your perogative, the people who are active on this forum are more interested in keeping Firearms in their original military condition rather than adding a lot of bells and whistles to them.
When the OP asked a question, he should have been prepared for the answers he got regarding his proposed actions. When he did not like some of the answers, things turned a bit arrogant and ugly. If you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions.
I am always amazed that we have new people here who have read a couple of magazines or articles and decided that they can improve on a system that was well tested not only in trials, but in several wars for the last 120 years, and is still being used in conflicts today.
They do not have any clue as to the original purpose of these rifles. It was to hit man sized VERTICAL targets at ranges out to 500 yards with a good chance of a first round hit probability. A two inch group at 100 yards, (meters, arshins, etc,) if the soldier is decently capable, will hit a man sized target at this distance. They were NOT target rifles, but rifles designed for extremely rough use conditions, to work all the time.
Take your ideas and attitude over to the General Forum and begone!
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Yes, you can take a $135 Mosin Nagant, drill and tap for a Picitinny rail, mount a Chinese 4x16 mildot scope, add a bipod, and you will have a rifle you can sell for maybe, $150?
This is a MILSURPS Forum here. While buying an inexpensive Mosin Nagant and cutting it up to make it better (maybe) is your perogative, the people who are active on this forum are more interested in keeping Firearms in their original military condition rather than adding a lot of bells and whistles to them.
When the OP asked a question, he should have been prepared for the answers he got regarding his proposed actions. When he did not like some of the answers, things turned a bit arrogant and ugly. If you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions.
I am always amazed that we have new people here who have read a couple of magazines or articles and decided that they can improve on a system that was well tested not only in trials, but in several wars for the last 120 years, and is still being used in conflicts today.
They do not have any clue as to the original purpose of these rifles. It was to hit man sized VERTICAL targets at ranges out to 500 yards with a good chance of a first round hit probability. A two inch group at 100 yards, (meters, arshins, etc,) if the soldier is decently capable, will hit a man sized target at this distance. They were NOT target rifles, but rifles designed for extremely rough use conditions, to work all the time.
Take your ideas and attitude over to the General Forum and begone!
.
- Location
- Ottawa origanally Muskoka
Mosin-Nagants are gaged by MON not MOA.....that's Minute Of Nazi.
If you by one when you get your hands on it do this;
Look at every scatch,dent etc on the gun and try to imagine how it got there, look at how she was built and imagine the people that did so, every little tool mark by every worker is still there...that rifle has blood on it, GAURENTEED! Every one of them made from 1891 too 1945 and 1/2 of the ones after it do.......examine it and shoot it then think about whether it 'needs' anything
My Polish M44 is an exception as it came straight from the warehouse in Radom Poland to Canada., NIB She was built for a war that never happened. Alas she has no history too tell....except a reminder of the cold war.....but her outward appearance remains unchanged....she is paper bedded, front site windage adjustment made and the trigger shimmed however.
If you by one when you get your hands on it do this;
Look at every scatch,dent etc on the gun and try to imagine how it got there, look at how she was built and imagine the people that did so, every little tool mark by every worker is still there...that rifle has blood on it, GAURENTEED! Every one of them made from 1891 too 1945 and 1/2 of the ones after it do.......examine it and shoot it then think about whether it 'needs' anything
My Polish M44 is an exception as it came straight from the warehouse in Radom Poland to Canada., NIB She was built for a war that never happened. Alas she has no history too tell....except a reminder of the cold war.....but her outward appearance remains unchanged....she is paper bedded, front site windage adjustment made and the trigger shimmed however.
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One thing I should have mentioned is the TRIGGER on the Moisin-Nagant rifle.
These are a very odd design, the sear, sear-spring and trigger-spring all being the same part. They generally are very rough and creepy. They can be slicked up very nicely with an oil-stone and some elbow-grease, given that you know what you are doing. Many of the Finnish rifles have excellent triggers, so it certainly can be done.
If the OP will climb down off his high horse and actually READ my initial post, he will discover that I already have told him EVERYTHING else he needs to know in order to make a Moisin-Nagant turn out acceptable targets.
Perhaps the OP would find more fun by getting something more impressive, say, a Wingmaster. He could trick it out with all kinds of goodies, such as a folding ATI pistol-grip stock, an ATI tube extender, Hogue forearm, S&J No-jam Follower, S&J Jumbo Tactical Safety and a 4-round sidesaddle. I would suggest adding an M-1913 Picatinny Rail, a laser, rangefinder and flashlight. That would make any old 870 truly AWEsome! Don't bother rebluing it, either; you want that battered, experienced, TACtical look!
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These are a very odd design, the sear, sear-spring and trigger-spring all being the same part. They generally are very rough and creepy. They can be slicked up very nicely with an oil-stone and some elbow-grease, given that you know what you are doing. Many of the Finnish rifles have excellent triggers, so it certainly can be done.
If the OP will climb down off his high horse and actually READ my initial post, he will discover that I already have told him EVERYTHING else he needs to know in order to make a Moisin-Nagant turn out acceptable targets.
Perhaps the OP would find more fun by getting something more impressive, say, a Wingmaster. He could trick it out with all kinds of goodies, such as a folding ATI pistol-grip stock, an ATI tube extender, Hogue forearm, S&J No-jam Follower, S&J Jumbo Tactical Safety and a 4-round sidesaddle. I would suggest adding an M-1913 Picatinny Rail, a laser, rangefinder and flashlight. That would make any old 870 truly AWEsome! Don't bother rebluing it, either; you want that battered, experienced, TACtical look!
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Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
Hey Nate,
Yes you can free float the barrel along the length with some minor sanding to the inner stock channel but you still want pressure at the tip of the stock.
A lot of the Nagant stocks have warped over time and it puts uneven pressure on the barrel which can cause slight innacuracy.
You can also get the barrel recrowned which is a major improvement and probably the one thing that will slightly improve the accuracy most.
You can do a slight trigger job (non permanent to make the pull and sear release smoother)
I posted a thread at this link, it has everything you will need to know:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=739858
The most important thing to look for is the rifling in the bore, you can always tweak the minor things to help out a bit but you can't improve the rifling or pitting in a bore.
Don't mind some of the crusties on here, I try not to permanently modify any milsurp but I don't give two ####s what someone else does with their property which they paid for.
PM me if you have any questions reference my thread I linked.
I have a spare dual stage trigger spring which I made myself kicking around if you're interested.
Cheers!
