Nationals stage #18

maurice

maurice

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open for discussion.....me super man....LOL

think of the first string and CLC 11,.....

for stage 18 the distance is doubled, and one side is strong hand only.
my question is,...will extra shots be penalized. ( I might try to send a 2nd volly of ammo towards the targets..LOLJK;)
 
maurice said:
so no penalty for extra shots?
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9.4.5 In a Virginia Count Course of Fire or a Fixed Time Course of Fire:

9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will
each incur one procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the specified
number and highest scoring hits will be awarded.

9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number
specified in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or
no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits.

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. firing the correct number of rounds in a string, but shooting at fewer targets
than specified in the string), will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. This penalty will
not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots.

9.4.6 In a Fixed Time Course of Fire:

9.4.6.1 Overtime shots are shots fired at the targets after the signal to cease fire has been given. Overtime
shots will not count for score.

9.4.6.2 Where static scoring paper targets are used, it is assumed that overtime shots result in the highest
value hits visible on the targets, so these are ignored for scoring purposes. For example, on a stage
with 1xA, 6xC and 1xD hits, where 2 overtime shots have been fired, the 2 highest hits (i.e. 1xA
and 1xC) are ignored, with the final score being 5xC and 1xD hits.

9.4.6.3 Where static paper no-shoots are used, it is assumed that all hits occurred within the specified
time, and will count in the scoring process, subject to Rule 9.4.2.
 
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Does this apply to this stage,....(ie: classifier)...


but,...if only extra shots are penalized,..than 12 rds for each string...?? yes/no..? and what if I only manage to fire 2 rds from the strong hand side, but fired 10 rds fromthe freestyle side,...or what if I don't reload until after the time limit,...and don't even fire any rounds strong hand?
 
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Maurice I haven't try it yet but I don't believe it can be done....first round with your hands on barricade...depend how high they will, but that will slow thing's down..reload well at least 1.30sec for me.....then strong hand at 25 yards.....6 secs is probably not feasible....but for a few!

of course I could just hose the targets and get it done in time.....but what good would that be.... ;)

Well as for the rules....it can be either FIX TIME OR Virginia....I don't believe it can be both..but they do say max 4 rounds per targets for both string....beside this stage is for!
 
Rules are the same for any course of fire. extra shots, extra hits and stacking all incur penalties.

As a side not this stage has been changed into two stages. WINMSS does not handle strings well and as such some manual scoring has to be done in the stats shack to prevent miss from one string being applied to the second string. Since we can have mote then one set of standards in a level three match we decided that wee would just make it two stages and make life easy for everyone.
 
Well as for the rules....it can be either FIX TIME OR Virginia....I don't believe it can be both..but they do say max 4 rounds per targets for both string....beside this stage is for!
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The point I was making with the underline and bold is what Walter said - extra shots, extra hits, stacking all incur penalties. Virginia Count and Fixed Time are identical in that regard. In addition Fixed Time also takes into account overtime shots and assumes they hit regardless of whether they really did or not - those extra hits are ignored and are also assumed to be the highest scoring hits :) So while a Fixed Time isn't a Virginia Count at the same time, they are scored almost the same.
 
maurice said:
LOL,...good one...I would prefer turning,..just to make sort of challenging...:p
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The reason I ask is because on timed fire standards like this, with the noise of the guns and people double plugging, the chances of them hearing the timer beep to end the stage are significantly diminished. Alternatively, if they are double plugged with electronic muffs they may hear the timer beep on an adjacent stage and think it is their own. I've seen this happen a few times. Turning targets however are consistent for everyone because they are visual. They used to have 50 yard standards every year at the Miller Invitational (later the Smith and Wesson Invitational) and with the targets hooked up to a timer on a pneumatic carrier, there was never any doubt when the stage began and ended. I did see someone cut a target in half once though. That was cool.

Pneumatic target turners cost a lot more than stands and sticks though.

In any case, based on the diagram and description I don't think anyone will be making the 12 shots and reload in the specified time limit, so you will want to pay close attention to the timer and just shoot the shots you know you can make. Last time I set it up for practice I got 8 hits and some crappy-ish points. It was a cold spring day though so my muscles were pretty tight. Maybe I could push it to 9 hits with reasonable points on a warm day...IF I nail the reload. In a match though, I would be happy to get 8 decent hits in 6 seconds.

I may give it another try this coming weekend.
 
Well you make me feel better I taught guezz I'm way behind in my game because I figure for me a mere mortal......8 A's is what I will be aiming for.....So a TP GM should be able to take a few shoots after the reload....
 
Walter Hornby said:
Rules are the same for any course of fire. extra shots, extra hits and stacking all incur penalties.

As a side not this stage has been changed into two stages. WINMSS does not handle strings well and as such some manual scoring has to be done in the stats shack to prevent miss from one string being applied to the second string. Since we can have mote then one set of standards in a level three match we decided that wee would just make it two stages and make life easy for everyone.
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Misses are not penalized in Fixed Time. You do not need to make this into two separate stages - that actually makes things worse for stats because they need to enter the scores twice, and verify 2 stages instead of 1 stage.

In fixed time, you only need to add up all the total hits, apply the necessary penalties for overtime shots (remove highest hit), extra shots (1 PE) and other procedurals (for creeping, missing mandatory reloads or not shooting strong/weak hand when specified) and total them all up.

There was a time when you needed to score strings separately. If you had someone who needed to apply the 20% penalty for strong/weak hand due to inability to shoot that component (due to physical defect, etc) then we used to only apply the 20% to that particular string. The latest rulebook does it different though, and applies the 20% penalty to the entire stage.
 
relliott said:
with the targets hooked up to a timer on a pneumatic carrier, there was never any doubt when the stage began and ended. I did see someone cut a target in half once though. That was cool.

Pneumatic target turners cost a lot more than stands and sticks though.
.
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I've shot a pneumatic set of standards once. You could actually hear the "PSSSSHHHHTTTTTTT" noise as the tubes filled with air, just prior to the targets appearing. No advantage there, right? :rolleyes:

Just ask the RO to hold the timer closer to your head if you're worried about missing the stop beep.

Remember, overtime shots are not -10, they're -5 (at most). As long as you're shooting A's, it doesn't matter how many overtime shots you take as the penalty for shooting them, and the value of the hit cancels each other out.
 
hungrybeagle said:
Misses are not penalized in Fixed Time. You do not need to make this into two separate stages - that actually makes things worse for stats because they need to enter the scores twice, and verify 2 stages instead of 1 stage.

In fixed time, you only need to add up all the total hits, apply the necessary penalties for overtime shots (remove highest hit), extra shots (1 PE) and other procedurals (for creeping, missing mandatory reloads or not shooting strong/weak hand when specified) and total them all up.
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There is consideral controversy regarding applying penalties to multi-string standard exercises. As I read the rules, each string is limited to a minimum score of zero therefore you have to apply the penalties to each string separately and WinMSS does not provided a means to separate out hits and penalties on a per-string basis. I have requested a ruling from the IPSC Rules Committee on the correct way to score multi string stages and they cannot agree on an answer. Therefore, I recommended splitting the stage into two. The fact that it is fixed time makes the problem slightly easier because we don't have to consider the effect of one string's time affecting another, but the correct scoring solution, even ignoring using WinMSS, it is still very unclear. Check out the discussion on the Global Village on this topic.
 
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Yes,..I was thinking i would just try and get good hits on the first 6,.and take my time and shoot the right hand stage with six good shots.....at least I don't
get miss + no points,...just procedural for shots over time limitm,,..does that make sense?
 
maurice said:
Yes,..I was thinking i would just try and get good hits on the first 6,.and take my time and shoot the right hand stage with six good shots.....at least I don't
get miss + no points,...just procedural for shots over time limitm,,..does that make sense?
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Overtime shots are NOT procedural penalties.

Procedurals are -10 points.
OT shots are - the highest scoring hit on the target (so if you have 5 C's on a target, and you fired 2 OT shots, you are actually scored as having 3 C's). Fixed time presents some interesting challenges to stats because they need to manually subtract the OT shots to make the points come out properly.
 
MrFritz said:
There is consideral controversy regarding applying penalties to multi-string standard exercises. As I read the rules, each string is limited to a minimum score of zero therefore you have to apply the penalties to each string separately ...
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I have a dislocated bone in my left wrist, it is very painful for me to shoot weak hand only. I would much rather shoot weak hand only stages freestyle and take the 20% penalty that applies to that string only. Whatever penalty I take would be more than offset by how much faster and more accurately i could shoot freestyle over weak hand.

I read the rules as having the penalty apply to the stage as a whole to prevent gamers from abusing the 20% penalty applied to a single string.
 
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