NCOWS anyone?

S

Sharps '63

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Had it with the IPSC Cowboys of SASS, their Cowboy Race guns and short stroke lever rifles?
I've been asked to see if there is interest in forming a Canadian 'Posse' of the National Congress of Old West Shootists. I guess that would translate to CANCOWS ......

NCOWS is more about shooting authentic firearms and less concerned about speed at all costs. Emphasis is also placed on historic costuming making it more like re-enactment. It isn't a backlash against SASS so much as an alternative shooting sport using the firearms of the old west. Sort of what the founders of SASS had in mind to begin with.

They have a good website you can find with your search engine to answer any questions concerning eligibility of firearms.

If you are interested, leave a personal message on this site and I'll get back to you.

Todd
 
Keep me in the loop eh!

I would be interested in this type of Canadian re-enactment activity. There is a good article today 07/07/07 in the Globe and Mail entitled "You cant take the cowboy out of Cowtown (Calgary AB EH!).

My grandparents all born during the 1860s lived through this period. One of my grandfathers was 39 in the 1901 Canadian census. He spent his lifea a cattle drover in Canada and was I have reason to believe on cattle drives in Texas as a young man; it would be fun to re-enact his life as a Texian or just re-enact some of the 1880-1900 era of the Canadian West.

The Calgary Stampede in on this week; it started in 1912 when it was felt that the "cowboy culture" was fading away. Tom Threepersons was at it.
 
Vicious/Sonofpaleface

Good to hear from you both! I was an IPSC burnout when I came to CAS. Then it was one pistol, no mods, and John Wayne was the ultimate model.

Now, as you know, it's anything goes and speed is the goal. I had the pleasure of shooting with Mike Venturino in Idaho at one of his last CAS shoots before he dropped it in favour of BPCR silhouette. He told me it was evolving in a manner he could not abide and turns out he was right.

Ask around in your area and get back to me. It may be that we have to join as individuals before we can form any possees.

I just got back from a trip to Ontario for a wedding and while there took in all the forts and sites I could. As a military re-enactor (Royal Engineer circa 1858-63), I was in 7th heaven! Wish we had some of that going for us here.

Regards, Todd
 
I personally find that there are far more "club" matches available than there are sanctioned cowboy matches. Just shoot those matches, where people concentrate on having fun rather than the weight of trigger pull on your Vaquero or the type of stitching that holds your jeans together. As a former IPSC shooter myself, it is easy to see where a new shooter comes from. If your there to have fun, hang out with like minded people and ignore as much as possible those that have an ever expanding rule book up their a**.
 
CAS Choices

Garand

Our local club is a group who tend to shoot .44s and .45s by choice and occasionally cap & ballers - just for the fun of it. Nary a short stroke kit or totally tricked out gun amongst the lot.

It's when you go to other matches that you get exposed to the 'race gun' mentality which is exactly what the founders of SASS were against. Granted, they offer classes to suit all tastes, but as you said, the rule book is getting pretty weighty these days as they try to cover all the loop holes.

I met a group of Montanans at Cody once and accepted an invite to attend one of their matches between Butte and Helena. They were a self-admitted bunch of Confederate sympathyizng red necks who shot cap & ball amongst themselves and were 'cowboy' all the way.
I asked why they were handicapping themselves this way and the answer was "...'cause this is the way it was ...." The safety lecture consisted of -"Don't shoot yerself or anyone else. Have fun. If we gotta tell ya more than that, maybe you oughta not be here."

Todd
 
If you think you have problems with SASS check out BYLAW 7 www.ncows.org/Bylaws.htm . They are anal in their authenticity. Just what I need , to show up at an event and find out I can't participate because my documentation on the buttons on my shirt and the printing on my cartridge boxes is in the wrong font. My outlook on the SASS games manship is , ignore it , shoot in a class that doesn't have all the games man stuff, don't expect a trophy , just shoot to have fun. If you start another organization you spread thin the participation in any one or you have to belong to more than one organization to participate in more than one event per year.
 
Guys

You're right. It would be a real pain to get flak from a 'Farby' about your outfit. NCOWS may not be 'IPSC Cowboys' out for speed, but they do seem to stress historical dress.
At the same time, they allow the Ruger Vaqueros (old and new) in their game. Go figure .....
I'd like to see how they conduct their matches before getting involved. I'm into historical re-enactment, so the costuming aspect wouldn't bother me.

A 'Farby', by the way, is a guy who approaches your set up and starts by saying: "Far be it from me to criticize your gear and clothing ..... but ...." and spends the next half hour doing just that.
We practice the "10' rule" -if it looks good from 10', it's OK. If you really want to know what kind of drawers I'm wearing and if my fly is zippered or buttoned, you're too damn close!
The Canadian founder of SASS once told me he got into a costuming showdown that had him and the other guy stripping to their socks and skivvies. It was a dead heat until he remembered that he had coinage from the era in his pants pocket! He won.
He and I had a falling out over SASS not allowing the guns of the British Empire into the game. As a Canadian, I find it offensive that Americans call the shot on firearm eligibility. At least NCOWS admits era-correct firearms such as the double actions of the turn of the century.

As far as muddying the waters with another organization, big deal. Organizing gun owners and shooters has always been like herding cats. If a bunch of people want to play by different standards, so be it. SASS has gravitated away from what it started out as - a refuge from IPSC, a fantasy game shooting cowboy guns.

Our club (in Quesnel, BC) puts emphasis on fun and we have imaginaible stages that trip up the gamesmen. Our stage writer has a degree in fine arts and is a published playright.

I designed a course of fire for another club once and every stage was based on an historic Canadian gun fight scenario. There are LOTS of them, despite what the PC anti-historians would have you think. Our western history is rife with gun play.

Todd
 
Sharp’s 63, if you are there to win only, as we call them “Gamers”, then yup this possibly is an issue, I don’t like Ruger’s as I feel they are not quite right, just my humble thoughts, don’t like modifying anything from original. But then again, why keep splitting the groups up, just makes us weaker. SASS has many groups classifications, to accommodate us, Frontier, Classic, Black Powder etc. if we feel there is a need for unmodified as build pre 1900 original/replica, lets suggest that. Shoot your group, compete with yourself.

Don’t forget the main rules of SASS, it’s HAVE FUN, and that it is, a great sport, great competitors, and great guns. Not sure where you are from, but I spent four years in Ontario, great bunch there, and a great bunch here in Alberta. But then I am not a top shooter, just one of the bunch, enjoying playing cowboys and (censored politically incorrect).

Known as Four Eyes Albright.
 
We have days good and bad. We try to stay in the guidlines of SASS be safe and have fun. We have most targets big and up close but we also have tougher small targets and knockdowns at our cowboy shoots. Most people that talk about spring and short stroke kits don't have the ability to take advantage of them.

Likewise we have people dressed to the nines while other barely meet the basics. No one usually complains. We have rule yellers, we have gun police, we have fun people and we have grumps. We have old and we have young.
95 percent of the time all are relatively happy with the program.

I think the right mind set is whats needed, not another organization. I've heard a lot of groans about SASS. I just never considered them to be international. We adopt most of their rules and use them as a guideline. We even allow new shooters to shoot double action guns [single action of course] for the first year to see if this is the sport for them.

Its hard to keep out the competitiveness its human nature. I find, except for a small group at our gatherings most shoot against them selves.
 
Gentlemen

I'm not slamming SASS or it's members. I was an early member of SASS as well as it's Canadian clone, the WCFSS. SASS lost me when they decided not to ship the newsletter to Canada as part of your membership package. The WCFSS lost me with it's Victoria based control (at the time) and lock step with SASS on everything.

If you'll re-read my original post, you'll see that I expressed a dissatisfaction (shared by many others) with the way the game has evolved.
The stock answer to any question of equipment eligibilty used to be "If John Wayne would use, it's OK". Those days of innocence are long gone.

I've yet to see the historic photo that shows a shotgun ammo 'bra' or one that holds two rounds together.

As for not having the ability to use short stroke kits, speak for yourself. I'll take your word on it.
I had a guy I met on a forum once tell how to "IPSC-ize" my .44-40 Henry by drilling holes in the lifter to lighten it and other mods. I told him I shot a Henry by choice because I liked the fact that it was archaic in design. I have several other lever actions as well, but the Henry is both historically correct for my re-enactment era and a fun gun to shoot.
In handguns, I own Ruger Vaqueros, Colt clones and just about any cap & baller you can name. All are fun, but the Rugers work - ALL the time.

Regarding the 'anal' approach of NCOWS towards costuming, good for them.
Costuming has always been a part of the game and many enjoy it as well as the shooting.

Like I said, managing shooters of any kind is like herding cats. You pays you money - you takes you choice.

Todd
 
Sharps '63 said:
I'm not slamming SASS or it's members. I was an early member of SASS as well as it's Canadian clone, the WCFSS. SASS lost me when they decided not to ship the newsletter to Canada as part of your membership package. The WCFSS lost me with it's Victoria based control (at the time) and lock step with SASS on everything.....
Click to expand...
Sounds like your "progression" has been very similar to mine, Todd - I'm a former member of both the WCFSS and SASS, and discontinued those memberships for pretty much the same reasons ... plus the fact that it always bothered me that SASS is not a club - it is a for-profit entity owned by the Wild Bunch, who receive financial and other benefits from the admittedly enjoyable activities it sanctions .... I and others in my area have also trended away from membership in the Alberta Frontier Shootists, after their affiliation with SASS (and undoubtedly other reasons) has seen the cost of attending one of their shoots approximately triple. :(

My only current membership (besides my local club) is in NCOWS (... well ... also the Grand Army of the Frontier, but then GAF isn't a shooting organization per se ... rather, it uses NCOWS rules as the basis for the shooting activity parts of its "frontier military" style events.)

So, I guess you could count me in on participation in a Canadian NCOWS Posse ... wonder if we'd ever be able to actually gather and shoot together? :cool:
 
"United we stand divided we fall", I am not starting a flame, or picking on any one, Grant you have always been top in this sport, this is just my humble opinion, yes, we have various people who gain, are in it for self whatever, etc, but they are there, money or volunteer, I belong to SASS, because it represents the shooting, belong to NFA, CSSA, NRA good luck to those who had the fore thought to make it work, and make some money it keeps them going, and those who volunteer to save our sport that is on a short line. Here in Alberta another shooting discipline is dying because of infighting, can’t make money etc, so it will be gone, another reason not to have guns. We in Canada are an election away from gun bans, unless we act as a group. We are our own worst enemies, while the anti gunners are united, financed and strong; we are split and all over the place. That is why I believe in One SASS, One Canadian Shooting Federation, One NRA, with all the members they can get, so to-morrow we can shoot.
 
.44-40, you are correct, we are our own worst enemies. I can remember when C-68 was before parliment, I wrote 815 letters to the various members sitting at that time. Most shooters, hunters, etc I know couldn't be bothered with 1 letter. You have various disciplines that look down their noses at other disciplines, hunters don't like target shooters, trap shooters don't like rifle shooters, cowboy shooters don't like IPSC shooters, IPSC shooters dislike everyone because of the misconception that they have of being better than everyone else in the world, etc.

If you don't feel like playing the political bs game you are within your rights to abstain. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as your willing to try and better the situation, like putting on your own matches. .44-40, if you have ever shot one of Grants matches, you already know that. While Grant and I are members of a limited number of clubs, it doesn't mean that the individual doesn't perpetuate the sport.
 
Guys

Saying that we need restrict ourselves to one shooting organization is akin to saying that all we need is one political party. If Preston Manning had believed that ......
SASS became the victim of it's own popularity and some people at the top became legends in their own minds. Once the rule book began to outweigh a gun, the situation changed. It set the stage for the 'rule beaters' despite it's best intentions otherwise.

If SASS had remained true to it's roots, there would be no issues. I like Grant's idea of a "frontier/military" style of event that would encompass the BC 1858 Gold Rush era, Riel Rebellion, Yukon Gold rush, etc. We have a wonderful history to celebrate and need not be ignored by our American friends.
I know from my re-enactment roles that there are more red tunics, kilts, M-H and Snider rifles in the US than there are in Canada. They are in love with British militaria in general, despite being a republic. They are quite knowledgeable about the Crimea, Isandlwhana and Rorke's Drift. ALL but one of our RE and RMLI Officers are American. Not one NCO, Sapper or Marine private.
We need to become more aware of our own history and heritage firearms. The 150th anniversdary of the arrival of the RE in BC is next year. Had they not come, we would have been annexed by the Americans.

Our club in Quesnel is not SASS or WCFSS affiliated by people belong to either or both at their whim. We use SASS rules in the main for safety and uniformity but may opt to allow non-SASS approved firearms at the club level, not our annual shoot coming up July 27-29.

Todd
aka 'Sjrt. McMurphy RE/Sjrt. Joy RMLI'
 
HOWDY. Forty4Forty ,I aways found you to be a postive pleasure to be around . So you wagoned west ,nice .
I am a SASS life menber due to it is cheaper to shoot in the states this way . I intened to live long and propser to get my moneys worth .
It will be the down fall of SASS in years to come all the gamer guns will raise the price of playing the GAME . In time there will be a stock division like IPSC .
If I had to hold a grudge against all the varmits that did me wrong there would be no time for shooting and having fun .
" NO TEARS "
If the event sucks just fire up that steel steed and ride .
I would shoot most games given time and money ,If you do like the game go invent your own and put it on .
CATS not here TIGERS and we are all right .
 
I like where this thread is going - CANCOWS :)
And I'm particularly interested in some of Grant's ideas (and re-iterated by Todd) - The Victorian Frontier. I'm all in favour of opening things up a bit: Webley's and Martini's :shotgun: and being sure we keep the history part alive, interesting and fun.

It seems we all share that fascination with combining knowing history, studying history and living it. I’ve played in the re-enactment/living history game of some sort or another for about 25 years, mostly determined by what was available in my area and what the “flavour” of the local group was. I’ve experienced first-hand the normal evolution of groups, the shift as people come & go. As individual interests change so does the group. We are social animals and group together according to common interests and frequently organise ourselves into clubs. As long as a club serves the common interests then it thrives, when the interests and membership changes then the club must change or die. This is also true of larger associations but less so, because associations serve larger needs than local clubs. This is all fine and to be expected.

We have to be careful not to confuse the value of clubs versus associations. A local western shootist club that is fostering CAS activities should not require real world political involvement. That is the purpose of larger associations and especially political party affiliations. We can recognise these linkages in our clubs and then value participation in the larger world but it is inappropriate to require it.

I stopped being an active member of a small living history club (not CAS linked) when the emphasis slowly changed to the social (read = party animals) and less towards the historical. There were those whose historical interests were as strong as mine who stayed, but they ended doing their thing in greater isolation (and bitterness) and in one extreme example gained the reputation amongst the party animals as being an “authenticity nazi”. That’s when it is time to move on.

The simple rules of Grant's local group http://members.memlane.com/gromboug/RMR4_CATEGORIES.htm are a good example of what should be ecpected at a local level and is similar to the approach in this area: sound safety rules combined with a simple approach to the activity.

Only a handful of local CAS types here are SASS members (I'm one), generally because they want to play on a broader stage and that is fine. We also tend to be the ones who put effort into the details of the look etc. and if anyone new shows up they experience a broad, tolerant and fun approach permeated with a safety mentality. You go to a SASS event and you know what is expected of you - if you take even a cursory look at Sassnet.com and the same with NCOWS.

So if their is adequate interest to play Victorian Frontier Shootist or CANCOWS :canadaFlag: this just broadens the choices and if nobody gets too snotty then people will enjoy the diversity. I believe this a true Canadian virtue.

This is an interesting and provocative post – at least it has provoked me to put forward my thoughts :). And, it has taken a while to get them written down because there are a few lines of thought to consider. :runaway: I'll be watching this thread with interest.

Regards
Icebox Bob
 
Nice to see that there are at least a few other Canadians out there with similar interests. If you like the idea of combining Victorian-era military re-enactment with "Frontier Action Shooting", you owe it to yourself to check out the Grand Army of the Frontier website:
http://www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org/

A quote of the first few lines of the GAF "mission statement" sums up its philosophy nicely: "Our Goal is to promote and enhance the portrayal of Victorian Era Military Personnel, from all Nations, while actively participating in either of the hobbies of Cowboy Action Shooting and/or reenacting, while always striving to ensure our Attire and our Personas are appropriate to this Era, whether in the 100% percent authentic arena or while portraying a Hollywood version... "

GAF is still in its infancy, is largely internet-based, and is predominantly American in its membership to date ... but it is a fascinating blend of these two interest areas, to my mind at least. As Commander of both the "International Department" and the "Division of Canada" of the Grand Army of the Frontier, I'd like to see more Canadians join and take part - if only so someone else could take on one of these titles - duties are hardly onerous I should add. ;) (GAF membership is free, by the way!)

The 4th Annual National Muster of the Grand Army of the Frontier takes place this year at Ackley, Iowa in mid-September. This will be the third one I attend (had to miss it last year, unfortunately.)

And as for shooting such firearms as Webleys and Martinis, well ....
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