NEA blemished lowers from SFRC

Lube yes...wipe down, maybe. Every rifle needs maintenance of course, but they really shouldn't need much in 1000 rounds. If I were doing back-to-back day after day 500 round sessions though I would follow that schedule for sure.

You've described exactly why I don't think torture testing necessarily tells you all that much, though...maintenance is a necessary part of the equation.

it depends what your looking to test, reliabilty, or destruction... myself I would value more of a high round count based upon reliability and maintained the way the user would maintain it. IF parts fail on this regime then you can say "BAD PARTS"..... my minimum round count for that would be 5k shot over a 3 day period with wipe down and lube every 1k, (constant use vs 500 rounds, sit in the closet for 2 weeks, etc) I believe the carbon and fouling would harden after sitting hence why if you do 1k before lunch, wipe down, lube.. 1k after lunch, wipe down, lube with cooling breaks every 250 rounds it would be constructive.

I believe the specs for an m4 barrel shooting full auto is basically 4 mags back to back and the barrel is toast.... sure it may shoot longer as we have seen in other videos, I believe 14 magazines before the upper finally exploded, but lets keep the temperture down to "resonable" levels.

if your testing to destruction, not lubing or cleaning i think that is a a bit of a lark as far as testing goes as then one of the smaller parts could wear on a bigger part because of lack of lubrication and cause failure.

see if NEA will sponser some ammo from canada ammo since your local to them.... good old norinco.
 
Lube yes...wipe down, maybe. Every rifle needs maintenance of course, but they really shouldn't need much in 1000 rounds. If I were doing back-to-back day after day 500 round sessions though I would follow that schedule for sure.

You've described exactly why I don't think torture testing necessarily tells you all that much, though...maintenance is a necessary part of the equation.


definitely agree about the pin most likely being the issue. I didn't see it mentioned...who is the LPK from?

My lower parts kit is a DPMS

so should be pretty good but still its a roll pin
 
My lower parts kit is a DPMS

so should be pretty good but still its a roll pin

I had a LPK with the front pivot pin out of spec, so yeah, my first though is normally that the LPK is the problem… although I believe some of the first NEA rifles had this same problem… it was suggested that the pin could be staked in place…
 
On the NEA rifle I bought, the pins would walk out. Is this considered a blemish these days?

I've had DPMS trigger pins break on me, twice, but never have I heard of out of spec pins. And bolt catch roll pins fit rather extra tight if you've ever installed, or removed one.

Bolt catch roll pins measure ~.093". What does yours measure.

Blemishes are cosmetic, enlarged holes are considered out of spec. :)

Keep drinking that kool-aid, you'll have gut rot soon enough.
 
great the hate mongers rise agian with kool-aid again

if they hate so much why do they keep serving drinks?

and i nerver realized that enlarged holes means out of spec

what was it that homer simpson would say dooh
 
The hole for the roll pin should be 3/32" (.094) and the roll pin a little larger than that. You can use a drill bit to see how tight the hole is, it should fit fairly snug.
 
i have checked it out and the roll pin is at .092 so it is the roll pin

You should look into getting the CMT LPK instead for your future builds. They can be had from Arms East. CMT supposedly supplies Colt (confirmation?) and Noveske (LF.net) with LPK's and other components. As far as AR manufacturers go, I hear that DPMS has a pretty mediocre reputation and it can be hit or miss with their quality.
 
You should look into getting the CMT LPK instead for your future builds. They can be had from Arms East. CMT supposedly supplies Colt (confirmation?) and Noveske (LF.net) with LPK's and other components. As far as AR manufacturers go, I hear that DPMS has a pretty mediocre reputation and it can be hit or miss with their quality.


thanks i will order one now
 
it depends what your looking to test, reliabilty, or destruction... myself I would value more of a high round count based upon reliability and maintained the way the user would maintain it. IF parts fail on this regime then you can say "BAD PARTS"..... my minimum round count for that would be 5k shot over a 3 day period with wipe down and lube every 1k, (constant use vs 500 rounds, sit in the closet for 2 weeks, etc) I believe the carbon and fouling would harden after sitting hence why if you do 1k before lunch, wipe down, lube.. 1k after lunch, wipe down, lube with cooling breaks every 250 rounds it would be constructive.

I believe the specs for an m4 barrel shooting full auto is basically 4 mags back to back and the barrel is toast.... sure it may shoot longer as we have seen in other videos, I believe 14 magazines before the upper finally exploded, but lets keep the temperture down to "resonable" levels.

if your testing to destruction, not lubing or cleaning i think that is a a bit of a lark as far as testing goes as then one of the smaller parts could wear on a bigger part because of lack of lubrication and cause failure.

see if NEA will sponser some ammo from canada ammo since your local to them.... good old norinco.

Lot of good points there...tempting to try to get ammo sponsorship but I am afraid if I did that people would conclude that that influenced my comments on the performance of the gun.

It wouldn't...but I would guess people would still suspect it.

Anyway I'm glad the problem turned out to be the pin. Good for you on not jumping to the immediate conclusion that NEA caused your problems. Even if a person hates that company, or any company for that matter, jumping to conclusions is for the mentally lazy.
 
I know that NEA's surface finishing approach has changed a lot recently. They used to take the position that "it's not a spec'd dimension, so we don't really care if it's pretty" but they got enough complaints that even though I know they still consider it technically irrelevant (which of course is true) they have buckled to consumer demand for a more consistent appearance.

My suggestion to them was that it was worth cleaning up the cosmetics if only because a lot of people would assume that they were taking an equally cavalier approach to the spec'd dimensions.

Anyway I haven't seen the current generation of lowers first hand so I can't say what they compare to for looks. I do know they have changed their methods to get a better appearance, though.

In fact they have also changed their assembly procedures pretty radically over the last two months or so and brought in a consultant from a big "tier 1" company to help them get their house in order.

We'll see how well they did...after waiting for them to get to a point where I suspect they have worked out the bugs, I decided to put my money on the chopping block and do a bit of testing. I got a transfer notification today of a 12.5" NEA-15.

When it arrives I will begin testing it with various ammo. All issues will be publicly documented and every round will be logged.

Once barrel break-in is complete, it will get lubed, but not cleaned, for a minimum of 1000 rounds. If that turns out to be instructive, I may keep going until it seems like I'm not learning anything by not cleaning it.

It happens that I don't think that you necessarily get a lot of useful information from not cleaning rifles...but sometimes you do, and most serious users of ARs would expect the guns to run for a weekend class without much in the way of maintenance.

Anyway I won't hesitate to post about any issues that develop. If there is one thing that the shooting community needs, it's more objective information.

I'm not sure that it's really my place to comment on that. And it would be a really, really long list of changes.

They've taken the various complaints seriously, though. Many, many components have been changed and a lot of the suppliers they used at first have been dropped. They did a lot of work on their FCG, and the new one is supposed to be very good. I am very interested to shoot the one they're sending me, although I did receive a correction a few minutes ago that the one they are sending is the 10.5" I had recently discussed with Jeff, not the 12.5 we talked about a few months back. We've talked often about guns and I had expressed an interest in a few different lengths, so that's fine. By sending the 10.5 now he's able to send one with a few subtle changes to the barrel extension that he wants me to look at.

Should be an interesting gun, I think.

misanthropist,

Just a couple comments/questions. In your earlier post you state "I decided to put my money on the chopping block and do a bit of testing". Later you stated that you are receiving the gun directly from NEA rather than a dealer. In order to do a fair test shouldn't you be getting a random gun from a dealer rather that a hand picked one directly from NEA? Are you even putting your money or the line or are you getting "T&E" gun from NEA at no charge?

I'm not trying to flame or insult, just clarify. I just want to see an objective test with no haterism or fanboyism involved.
 
I bought it myself with money I earned at my regular day job, and which I EMT'd to Jeff last week. The gun is a rack gun and in fact the upper was changed at the last minute so there should be no time to tune it for me. There was minor annoyance on the part of NEA staff at having to suddenly switch uppers at the last second - the transfer already went through so there was no way to keep the whole gun intact, and they had to build an upper on the spot to get the latest barrel extension on my gun. That was annoying for them as they were in the middle of moving and renovating their shop and it was probably a bit inconvenient to suddenly screw around with my rifle.

So it's not tuned at all. You could argue that a random gun from a dealer would be more fair but honestly, this gun just went together at the last minute after a conversation Jeff and I had. We specifically discussed the whole issue of tuning the gun for me and it was not done and would not be practical to attempt just because of the time frame involved, and the sudden change of uppers at the last minute. It's just a rack grade NEA. If it weren't for the fact that there is a specific lower on the gun, they wouldn't have even had a particular one to mess around with. Jeff wasn't really thrilled about having a specific gun to have to send me, just because he had a few ready guns he could have sent otherwise when we first talked about doing this a few months back.

They discounted it slightly, mainly because the lower it's built on is a cosmetic reject that wouldn't have been allowed out any more (and they fought me on getting it at all) but I had specified a specific serial number months ago, so they eventually agreed to let me have that lower, even though it would be a reject now, for cosmetic reasons only. To get the very slight discount that I got I had to promise not to fixate on the finish of the lower.

Of course for me that's a total non-issue so that was never a concern. I've seen enough ugly Colts that ran like clockwork that I couldn't care less. I think they were mainly concerned that I would post a bunch of close-ups of the lower, which isn't representative of their current stuff.

We talked about possibly getting me a new lower in the near future, as soon as they get caught up on other stuff. I believe they will be donating the new lower, but that's as close as this gets to being "sponsored". And it hasn't happened yet, and if they took offense to any comments I made about the gun and wouldn't send me another lower I couldn't care less. A lower is worth a hundred and fifty bucks or so...hardly an amount that would interest me enough to change the outcome of a review. If they decide not to send me a newer lower, I really won't care. In fact the only use I would have would be for taking close-ups, because I'll be running it with the lower it's on, so a second lower is not particularly useful to me at this time anyway.

I'm not really interested in trading reviews for guns. It wouldn't affect the review, but it would affect the perception of the review.

We also discussed a couple of tuned LPK parts that they might send me, but they're not in the gun. If they'd wanted to send me a cheater rifle, they would have just put their tuned parts in, rather than explain what they're playing around with and then making me promise not to show anyone if they send me any.

I would say that this is a much greater level of disclosure than you would get from 99% of testers and you now have a high degree of insight in to the internal aspects of this whole project. I have been on the internet long enough to know that you can never make everybody happy, but this test is going to be about as honest and as detailed as I can find a way to make it.

Here is the only disclaimer I'll give: I like the guys at NEA. Unlike most here, I've talked to them quite a bit, and there is a lot of stuff that they do that very few people here realize in terms of honest self-improvement. There is also a lot that they have done that's been severely misinterpreted, and knowing Jeff I know he really struggles with that. So I am rooting for them to win in the long run.

Of course they've also done some pretty public, pretty boneheaded things. But it's not like they aren't aware of it. It's like everything else on the internet: there is the internet persona, and there's the real person. The real guys at NEA are not at all the way some here probably imagine. They're good guys who ####ed up some things and can't figure out how to shake it off. A real shame.

But that's neither here nor there. I am a devotee of the Glock 17, and anyone who reads the pistol forum knows that I slammed the Gen 4 all over the place for its issues. I love the 1911 more than any other pistol and I absolutely rip the #### out of 95% of 1911 manufacturers. I like NEA and I like the guys at NEA and I want their rifles to turn out well. But I'll be logging rounds and recording performance, not writing about my feelings. If the gun chokes, I'll say so. If I notice premature wear on a surface, I'll say so. If it won't group, I'll say so. The best way to help NEA is to just be honest IMO. If the gun is good, I'll tell you. If it isn't, I'll tell you and I'll tell them what I think it needs.

But I suspect it will be pretty good.
 
I'm sorry Misanthropist, we are going to have to see third-party verification of your time-stamped receipt, a copy of your credit card statement. ;)

Plus you will have to have another manufacturer's AR, picked by a blinded team of impartial observers, on the bench at all times during testing and wear a double blindfold while sending lead down range.
And please do not make the mistake of excluding essential data such as ambient temperature, phase of moon, your horoscope on the testing dates, etc...that sort of stuff makes a big difference when you are wearing the tinfoil like some of those "interested" in your results undoubtably do! :D

Just kidding. I am looking forward to seeing the results of your assessment whatever they might be. It may just help put some of the rumours to rest and allow for more objective discussion on the pluses and minuses of the NEA-15. As it is now, such a discussion seems impossible.
 
Lot of good points there...tempting to try to get ammo sponsorship but I am afraid if I did that people would conclude that that influenced my comments on the performance of the gun.

It wouldn't...but I would guess people would still suspect it.

Anyway I'm glad the problem turned out to be the pin. Good for you on not jumping to the immediate conclusion that NEA caused your problems. Even if a person hates that company, or any company for that matter, jumping to conclusions is for the mentally lazy.

i never jump to the manufacturer is the problem because it dosent mater who makes a lower or upper ect, even the big name guys have problems it just depends on how much you hear it.

just like if Ford has a recall on 5,000 cars it all over the news and if Toyota or Honda has a recall on 500,000 cars you dont hear anything about it.
 
I'm sorry Misanthropist, we are going to have to see third-party verification of your time-stamped receipt, a copy of your credit card statement. ;)

Plus you will have to have another manufacturer's AR, picked by a blinded team of impartial observers, on the bench at all times during testing and wear a double blindfold while sending lead down range.
And please do not make the mistake of excluding essential data such as ambient temperature, phase of moon, your horoscope on the testing dates, etc...that sort of stuff makes a big difference when you are wearing the tinfoil like some of those "interested" in your results undoubtably do! :D

Just kidding. I am looking forward to seeing the results of your assessment whatever they might be. It may just help put some of the rumours to rest and allow for more objective discussion on the pluses and minuses of the NEA-15. As it is now, such a discussion seems impossible.

NEA dug their own hole. No one here told lies about the guns or the people who make them. They did everything they were accused of and probably more. Would I trust them with my money, not a chance.
 
I bought it myself with money I earned at my regular day job, and which I EMT'd to Jeff last week. The gun is a rack gun and in fact the upper was changed at the last minute so there should be no time to tune it for me. There was minor annoyance on the part of NEA staff at having to suddenly switch uppers at the last second - the transfer already went through so there was no way to keep the whole gun intact, and they had to build an upper on the spot to get the latest barrel extension on my gun. That was annoying for them as they were in the middle of moving and renovating their shop and it was probably a bit inconvenient to suddenly screw around with my rifle.

So it's not tuned at all. You could argue that a random gun from a dealer would be more fair but honestly, this gun just went together at the last minute after a conversation Jeff and I had. We specifically discussed the whole issue of tuning the gun for me and it was not done and would not be practical to attempt just because of the time frame involved, and the sudden change of uppers at the last minute. It's just a rack grade NEA. If it weren't for the fact that there is a specific lower on the gun, they wouldn't have even had a particular one to mess around with. Jeff wasn't really thrilled about having a specific gun to have to send me, just because he had a few ready guns he could have sent otherwise when we first talked about doing this a few months back.

They discounted it slightly, mainly because the lower it's built on is a cosmetic reject that wouldn't have been allowed out any more (and they fought me on getting it at all) but I had specified a specific serial number months ago, so they eventually agreed to let me have that lower, even though it would be a reject now, for cosmetic reasons only. To get the very slight discount that I got I had to promise not to fixate on the finish of the lower.

Of course for me that's a total non-issue so that was never a concern. I've seen enough ugly Colts that ran like clockwork that I couldn't care less. I think they were mainly concerned that I would post a bunch of close-ups of the lower, which isn't representative of their current stuff.

We talked about possibly getting me a new lower in the near future, as soon as they get caught up on other stuff. I believe they will be donating the new lower, but that's as close as this gets to being "sponsored". And it hasn't happened yet, and if they took offense to any comments I made about the gun and wouldn't send me another lower I couldn't care less. A lower is worth a hundred and fifty bucks or so...hardly an amount that would interest me enough to change the outcome of a review. If they decide not to send me a newer lower, I really won't care. In fact the only use I would have would be for taking close-ups, because I'll be running it with the lower it's on, so a second lower is not particularly useful to me at this time anyway.

I'm not really interested in trading reviews for guns. It wouldn't affect the review, but it would affect the perception of the review.

We also discussed a couple of tuned LPK parts that they might send me, but they're not in the gun. If they'd wanted to send me a cheater rifle, they would have just put their tuned parts in, rather than explain what they're playing around with and then making me promise not to show anyone if they send me any.

I would say that this is a much greater level of disclosure than you would get from 99% of testers and you now have a high degree of insight in to the internal aspects of this whole project. I have been on the internet long enough to know that you can never make everybody happy, but this test is going to be about as honest and as detailed as I can find a way to make it.

Here is the only disclaimer I'll give: I like the guys at NEA. Unlike most here, I've talked to them quite a bit, and there is a lot of stuff that they do that very few people here realize in terms of honest self-improvement. There is also a lot that they have done that's been severely misinterpreted, and knowing Jeff I know he really struggles with that. So I am rooting for them to win in the long run.

Of course they've also done some pretty public, pretty boneheaded things. But it's not like they aren't aware of it. It's like everything else on the internet: there is the internet persona, and there's the real person. The real guys at NEA are not at all the way some here probably imagine. They're good guys who f**ked up some things and can't figure out how to shake it off. A real shame.

But that's neither here nor there. I am a devotee of the Glock 17, and anyone who reads the pistol forum knows that I slammed the Gen 4 all over the place for its issues. I love the 1911 more than any other pistol and I absolutely rip the f**k out of 95% of 1911 manufacturers. I like NEA and I like the guys at NEA and I want their rifles to turn out well. But I'll be logging rounds and recording performance, not writing about my feelings. If the gun chokes, I'll say so. If I notice premature wear on a surface, I'll say so. If it won't group, I'll say so. The best way to help NEA is to just be honest IMO. If the gun is good, I'll tell you. If it isn't, I'll tell you and I'll tell them what I think it needs.

But I suspect it will be pretty good.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification. :)
 
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