Neck resizing advice
- Thread starter jeremy403
- Start date
I use and like the Forster neck bushing bump dies (Hirsch Precision, one of our sponsors and great to deal with), however Jerry @ Mystic Precision (another sponsor) uses the Lee dies very successfully. I like and use both just for different applications. By the way, you can adjust the tension with the Lee die just by using a different diameter decap rod. I've use several different size rods to alter tension, mostly for cast bullets.
I have a set of Lee neck dies and I've shot a few sub 0.625MOA 5rnd groups with a Remy 700 SPS AAC SD rifle with factory barrel. Late last summer I got a Forster neck sizing die and an Ultra micrometer seating die but haven't been able to put it through its paces as yet to see if I could improve my groups but I have my doubts.
For the price of the Lee collet die I would try them first. I have had good success with them in several calibers, however , annealing the case necks each time really goes a long way in lowering ES as does accurate powder measure.
Bruce has a good question. Neck resizing can be a two edged blade and cause more grief than it fixes.
Your press/dies/shell head holder need to be true to the axis when all is assembled. This causes a lot more issues than many new to reloading are aware of.
Neck resizing only can exaggerate an already existing issue. Another problem is if you are reloading for more than one rifle chambered for the same cartridge it that neck resized only reloads may not fit in the chambers of all rifles. I can personally attest to this.
I am a bit anal about reloading, to a point. For each of the rifles I shoot a lot, often chambered for the same cartridge but made up for a special purpose. I am lucky enough to have a Tikka T3 that many would give a left testicle for. It doesn't care what you load it with, full length resized brass, factory fresh/loaded ammo of different bullet weights and velocities etc, it just insists on shooting very tight sub moa groups if I do my part. The rifle just seems to work with everything from commercial/milsurp 160 grain round nose bullets to 95 grain Hornady Vmax. For each load I have separate 60 round containers that are marked with windage and elevation adjustments from the zero set points for the 140 grain load. The IOR Valdada scope mounted on it has been absolutely consistent with its adjustments.
I have several 6.5x55 rifles. The milsurps will accept the neck size only cases but once they have been used in them I have to full length resize. Just to clear it up, I do not use the loads intended for the T3 in any milsurp rifle. Just the brass when it gets close to its end.
I also have a Remington 700 with a heavy 30 in fluted barrel I use for long range shooting. Phenomenol rifle. This rifle has a very tight chamber. Any brass neck sized for it will fit all of the rest of my rifles. None of the brass from the other rifles will fit it unless they are full length resized through a set of small base dies.
Before this gets to long, neck resizing can extend brass life and even contribute to accuracy as long as they are being used in the same rifle each time. That being said, my Brazilian Mausers can mix and match without a hiccup.
Some people, I think H4831 included believe that neck resizing only can lead to issues while hunting. Dirt or oil on the cases may not allow the cases to chamber. IMHO, those people are right. Because of that belief, when I am loading "hunting" rounds I partially case resize as well.
Neck resizing is fine for the range. It may even be OK for controlled range conditions. For most hunting conditions where your ammo/chamber can inadvertently get crud involved it isn't the best idea.
Your press/dies/shell head holder need to be true to the axis when all is assembled. This causes a lot more issues than many new to reloading are aware of.
Neck resizing only can exaggerate an already existing issue. Another problem is if you are reloading for more than one rifle chambered for the same cartridge it that neck resized only reloads may not fit in the chambers of all rifles. I can personally attest to this.
I am a bit anal about reloading, to a point. For each of the rifles I shoot a lot, often chambered for the same cartridge but made up for a special purpose. I am lucky enough to have a Tikka T3 that many would give a left testicle for. It doesn't care what you load it with, full length resized brass, factory fresh/loaded ammo of different bullet weights and velocities etc, it just insists on shooting very tight sub moa groups if I do my part. The rifle just seems to work with everything from commercial/milsurp 160 grain round nose bullets to 95 grain Hornady Vmax. For each load I have separate 60 round containers that are marked with windage and elevation adjustments from the zero set points for the 140 grain load. The IOR Valdada scope mounted on it has been absolutely consistent with its adjustments.
I have several 6.5x55 rifles. The milsurps will accept the neck size only cases but once they have been used in them I have to full length resize. Just to clear it up, I do not use the loads intended for the T3 in any milsurp rifle. Just the brass when it gets close to its end.
I also have a Remington 700 with a heavy 30 in fluted barrel I use for long range shooting. Phenomenol rifle. This rifle has a very tight chamber. Any brass neck sized for it will fit all of the rest of my rifles. None of the brass from the other rifles will fit it unless they are full length resized through a set of small base dies.
Before this gets to long, neck resizing can extend brass life and even contribute to accuracy as long as they are being used in the same rifle each time. That being said, my Brazilian Mausers can mix and match without a hiccup.
Some people, I think H4831 included believe that neck resizing only can lead to issues while hunting. Dirt or oil on the cases may not allow the cases to chamber. IMHO, those people are right. Because of that belief, when I am loading "hunting" rounds I partially case resize as well.
Neck resizing is fine for the range. It may even be OK for controlled range conditions. For most hunting conditions where your ammo/chamber can inadvertently get crud involved it isn't the best idea.
No particular reason was just given the impression it would extend brass life and increase accuracy.
I like to tinker see if I can get tighter groups you know how it goes.
Dont know if the brass is marked have never noticed
Neck resizing will not extend brass life, unless the chamber is long, (excessive head space) and full length resizing pushes the shoulder back every time, allowing the brass to become thin, or crack, above the web. The normal way for brass to end its useful life is by getting vertical cracks in the neck, starting from the mouth. This comes about by constant expansion and resizing of the neck. To extend its life, anneal the cases from the shoulder up, about every four or five shots.
When I get a rifle new to me, the first thing I do is put up a target at 100 yards, get the best rest from a bench that I can and shoot five shots, one after the other. The barrel will probably be too hot to touch.
Examine the target. If the target is anything except a round, smallish group, I tinker with the rifle, not the ammunition. There's a good chance the bullets will walk, as the barrel heats up. This means there is pressure on the barrel in the wrong places. Most rifles I've been associated with shoot the best if first the action is evenly bedded, then the barrel is clear, with a pressure point installed at the from of the wood. Some barrels are designed to be free floated, but my experience has been that most are best with the pressure point the barrel pushes against.
We've all heard of the great accuracy of the old Parker Hale rifles and it is because of the lump of wood at the front of the stock that puts pressure on the barrel.
The expensive rifles that Jack O'Connor had built for him by the worlds best stock makers, all had a carved saddle to put upward pressure on the barrel.
A couple of years ago I bought a new bolt action Marlin in 243, paid a little over 300 for it, brand spanking new. I loaded up some shells for it and went to the range to do my test. It took two or three to get well onto the target, then I fired my five. The barrel was smoking hot, but my target of five made a one inch group.
I couldn't wait to get home to take the stock off, to see how marlin had designed it. There, in the Tupperwear stock was a nice saddle in the front for the barrel. When the stock screws were tightened down it put considerable upward pressure on the barrel. That is the best shooting 243 I have owned, and I can think of two other standard commercial 243 rifles, plus two custom built ones I have owned.
Then I got a Tikka T3 in 7-08, which performs just like Bearhunter describes his! And the darn barrel is free floating, so there you go.
Both those rifles, the 243 and the 7-08 shoot into the same group with different weight bullets. With rifles like those it is a waste of time to tinker with the ammunition. Just load them right up to what they are designed for and shoot away.
My advice to the OP is to spend your time tinkering with the rifle, instead of the ammunition.
Bruce
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Chinbullco
Regular
- Location
- NW Alberta
Take the FL dies you're using now and back them off 2/3 threads, see if there's an improvement. If accuracy improves get neck dies.
The advice below is given by Kevin Thomas of Team Lapua USA formally of the Serra bullet test lab. And I'm a firm believer in the "Rat Turd in the violin case" resizing method. (full length resizing)
Read the link below carefully
The Rifleman's Journal
by Germán A. Salazar
Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
http://riflemansjournal.########.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html
Read the link below carefully
The Rifleman's Journal
by Germán A. Salazar
Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
http://riflemansjournal.########.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html
Much of what bench rest shooters do filters down to us, BUT the majority of us have standard off the shelf factory rifles and much of what bench rest shooters do would be overkill for us. Meaning if you do not have a custom rifle with a tight chamber and neck a bushing die may do more harm than good.
On a off the shelf rifle you will need to size the neck of the case in several steps with a bushing die or you will create "more" runout by "over squeezing" and warping the case neck in one step. With a full length die the case is reduced in size uniformly and the body of your resized cases will not contact your chambers walls. This means any imperfections in the case can not influence the alignment of the bullet into the axis of the bore.
The only cases I neck size are for my .303 British Enfield rifles because of dimension differences between the American SAAMI and British military.
Keep it simple and buy a Forster full length die.
Full Length Forster Sizing Die Cutaway video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgIfzsH8N6k
When the expander ball enters the case neck the neck of the case is still supported by the neck of the die. The Forster spindles lock nut has a thick rubber washer between the nut and the top of the die letting the expander ball "float" and self center inside the die.
NOTE: More neck runout is caused by locking the expander ball spindle down OFF CENTER than any other cause.
Below is a modified RCBS full length die using a Lee lock ring that is only tightened finger tight and allows the die to float and self center in the press threads.
This same die has a Forster spindle expander ball installed and this die produces "MUCH" less runout than it ever did before.
You can buy the complete Forster die or modify most other dies with the Forster spindle unit.
07blackwater
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Port Coquitlam, BC
I use Lee collect dies for a few calibres (most notably the belted 7mm mag) that are bolt actions.
My favourite deer rifle is a 1954 model 760 in 270. It's never going to be a tack driver but it's good enough. I'd never neck size for it due to reliability and it's simply not accurate enough to worry about it.
You can, however, adjust a regular full length sizing die (like you have) to reduce over working the case.
Look on YouTube, there's many videos on adjusting a full length sizing die to not over work your brass and cause premature case failure.
My favourite deer rifle is a 1954 model 760 in 270. It's never going to be a tack driver but it's good enough. I'd never neck size for it due to reliability and it's simply not accurate enough to worry about it.
You can, however, adjust a regular full length sizing die (like you have) to reduce over working the case.
Look on YouTube, there's many videos on adjusting a full length sizing die to not over work your brass and cause premature case failure.
Well you guys have pretty much talked me out of neck sizing. I guess I'm going to look into annealing I want to get as much out of my brass as possible.
Both rifles are CZ the 204 shoots half inch groups with basically anything you can throw at it and the 243 isn't too far behind.
I think I should be happy with that.
Both rifles are CZ the 204 shoots half inch groups with basically anything you can throw at it and the 243 isn't too far behind.
I think I should be happy with that.
I use Lee Collets for all calibers (4) and have found sub-MOA to 200 yds and beyond...with factory rifles. When I need to FL size (i.e. case shoulder prevents free bolt closure), I use a Redding Body Die - this sizes the case back to specifications, minus the neck. I tend to be conscious of how I set the die to move the shoulder back .002" maximum. Then I neck size with the Lee Collet.
Btw, how does one measure neck tension? The Lee Collet is sized .001" less that the projectile diameter - is that how it's measured? You can polish the decap pin to .002" or more to increase neck tension. I have never used an expander ball type of die with bushings. I like the collet as it sizes by squeezing the neck to the mandrel, or sets the inside diameter.
Btw, how does one measure neck tension? The Lee Collet is sized .001" less that the projectile diameter - is that how it's measured? You can polish the decap pin to .002" or more to increase neck tension. I have never used an expander ball type of die with bushings. I like the collet as it sizes by squeezing the neck to the mandrel, or sets the inside diameter.
If optimal accuracy is your goal, I'd recommend the Wilson chamber-type BR neck sizing dies and an arbor press. I'd also purchase a range of bushings (maybe 4 or 5 for each cartridge) so that I could size the necks with the best degree of neck tension--something I'd experiment with in my load development (altering the neck tension can result in the level that is best in your gun). My experience has been that these dies yield cases with better alignment and less working of the brass than you will get with any 7/8-14 die used in the usual press (the necks are reduced in the one pass, rather than being reduced first and then expanded with the expander ball with the usual press-mounted dies). I'd also go with the Wilson chamber-type seating die rather than a 7/8-14 seater. In my experience with .22 PPC .22 BR, and .243W, loaded ammunition done this way has better run-out (is more perfectly concentric) than what I've obtained using the more usual 7/8-14 dies in ordinary presses, and minimal run-out is crucial to the highest levels of accuracy.
You are certainly right in seeing neck-sizing as one route to better accuracy. The Wilson dies only reduce part of the neck--enough to hold the bullet firmly--leaving some of it just ahead of the shoulder to further help center the cartridge in as perfect as possible alignment with the bore. That's the advantage of neck-only sizing. The cartridge ends up aligned more closely with the bore, rather than sitting on the bottom of the chamber and somewhat out-of-alignment with the bore.
The Wilson dies are not cheap, but, in my opinion, they're more than worth the cost. I'm not sure which Canadian suppliers would carry them, but you could try Jerry at Mystic Precision. If he doesn't have them, he could probably get them for you. Or you could go directly to Brownell's or Sinclair for them.
Of course, the ultimate dies (and I know this doesn't apply in the present case) are those made with the same chambering reamer used to chamber a new barrel. This is something a lot of gunsmiths will do if asked. Such dies provide the best approach to perfectly concentric loaded rounds, but the Wilson chamber-type BR dies come close.
You are certainly right in seeing neck-sizing as one route to better accuracy. The Wilson dies only reduce part of the neck--enough to hold the bullet firmly--leaving some of it just ahead of the shoulder to further help center the cartridge in as perfect as possible alignment with the bore. That's the advantage of neck-only sizing. The cartridge ends up aligned more closely with the bore, rather than sitting on the bottom of the chamber and somewhat out-of-alignment with the bore.
The Wilson dies are not cheap, but, in my opinion, they're more than worth the cost. I'm not sure which Canadian suppliers would carry them, but you could try Jerry at Mystic Precision. If he doesn't have them, he could probably get them for you. Or you could go directly to Brownell's or Sinclair for them.
Of course, the ultimate dies (and I know this doesn't apply in the present case) are those made with the same chambering reamer used to chamber a new barrel. This is something a lot of gunsmiths will do if asked. Such dies provide the best approach to perfectly concentric loaded rounds, but the Wilson chamber-type BR dies come close.
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Here's an interesting read - I am happy with collets.
http://forum.snipershide.info/showthread.php?t=224750
http://forum.snipershide.info/showthread.php?t=224750
