neck sizing and case mouth flare

[infideleggwelder]

just new to reloading, like today. Lee 50th anniversary press arrived today. will be reloading 303 Brit. i have the lee deluxe 3 die set. can i neck size with that and how is that done? just a light press after the primer pops out? and how often does that need doing?
and as i`ll be starting with cast(NOE mold not here yet), ill need to flare the case mouths. any idea how to do that?
i`m sure these questions have all been asked here.
i have a pile of winchester brass which i intend to use to make all my newbie mistakes with, and will be starting with the 14 gr Harris load.
thanks

 

[supernova]

The Lee dies have an instruction manual. The collet die neck sizes only. Follow the setup instructions and use it as described. It takes more force than FL sizing due to the way the die operates. You will be able to feel when it tops out, use enough force to get to that point every time. Lee makes a universal flaring die. You'll need one or something similar to flare case mouths. The deluxe die set has no flaring die. Cases need to be sized every time whether you neck size or full length size. Search "the o-ring trick" for loading .303. It will keep your brass from stretching while fire forming. Neck sizing will let the case headspace off the shoulder to prevent further stretching and extend case life.

 

[BCRider]

..... Cases need to be sized every time whether you neck size or full length size. ......

I was with you up to this somewhat confusing sentence. Especially since you go on to describe the Oring trick and how he won't need to full length size after the cases are fire formed.

For NEW cases you'll want to full length size them. But if you're working with factory empties that you shot with the rifle you're using then you can consider them as already fire formed and you can "just" neck size them. The neck slug in the die will prevent you from making the neck too small.

For jacketed bullets I'm thinking that a light chamfer with a case mouth tool will provide the amount of flare you want. But I have to try that to find out. And with luck or some work you should be able to rely on the neck tension on the bullet skirt and avoid having to use a crimp. Especially if you'll be single loading the rounds.

If shooting from the magazine I'd suggest load the magazine up, take a shot then empty the magazine to measure the OAL of the rounds. If the neck tension is sufficient there won't be any bullet set back. If you find no change load them all again and shoot one then unload and measure. Continue one shot and measuring for a dozen rounds and if all is good you should be fine from then on. This is how I'll be approaching it with my own .303British neck size only for my Lee Enfield.

 

[silverfoxdj]

The Lee dies have an instruction manual. The collet die neck sizes only. Follow the setup instructions and use it as described. It takes more force than FL sizing due to the way the die operates. You will be able to feel when it tops out, use enough force to get to that point every time. Lee makes a universal flaring die. You'll need one or something similar to flare case mouths. The deluxe die set has no flaring die. Cases need to be sized every time whether you neck size or full length size. Search "the o-ring trick" for loading .303. It will keep your brass from stretching while fire forming. Neck sizing will let the case headspace off the shoulder to prevent further stretching and extend case life.

If you mean the "Expander" die most of the deluxe kits (4) dies has it.

 

[Therion]

Lee sells a 'universal' flaring die (I think it comes with two 'inserts') that can be used to flare a wide variety of cases.
The general recommendation is to use a minimal amount of flare.

 

[supernova]

I'm not sure what's confusing you? Most fire formed brass won't hold a bullet, it needs to be sized. It can be neck or FL sized depending on what you want to do. Some rare instances with either a tight match chamber or using very large cast bullets leave fire formed brass with enough neck tension to hold a bullet. Most rifles however do not so cases must be sized. The Lee deluxe 3 die rifle sets do not include an expander. The pistol die sets do. Chamfering is all you'll need for jacketed loads but the cast bullets he will be loading will likely be much bigger than the .310" bullets Lee designed the dies for. The FL expander is .3085" for 2 thou neck tension with a .310" bullet. Let's say he casts a .314" bullet there's 6 thou. The collet die produces 1 thou neck tension. A flared case mouth will prevent crushed cases and bullet shaving when done correctly. Without flaring he runs the risk of crushing cases and shaving bullets. I think I used my words right this time

 

[BCRider]

I know all that stuff. It's simply the way you worded your sentence which seems to contradict what you typed on either side of it. A newbie would read it along with the stuff around it and I can see where they'd sit there and say "Huh?".

Take that one somewhat confusing sentence out of your post and it was wonderful. Or if it was re-written to better support your intended message that would be great as well.

 

[supernova]

What's confusing about it? It simply states the need to size the case via one of two basic methods. I'm genuinely interested to know how you read it and what you think it means? Or how you think it is perceived? "Cases need to be sized every time whether you neck size or full length size" The way I read (wrote) it is that a fired case has to be resized, and you can do that by neck sizing or full length sizing. I'm being honest here, not trying to start an argument and won't engage in one.

 

[Tinman204]

just new to reloading, like today. Lee 50th anniversary press arrived today. will be reloading 303 Brit. i have the lee deluxe 3 die set. can i neck size with that and how is that done? just a light press after the primer pops out? and how often does that need doing?
and as i`ll be starting with cast(NOE mold not here yet), ill need to flare the case mouths. any idea how to do that?
i`m sure these questions have all been asked here.
i have a pile of winchester brass which i intend to use to make all my newbie mistakes with, and will be starting with the 14 gr Harris load.
thanks

First off welcome to the wonderful world of shooting cast!!

As previously stated READ the instructions that come with your dies most of you questions will be answered.

As for flaring, I cast and load for many calibers and as a rule I don't flare any cases that I'm loading a gas checked bullets. The gas check seems to open up the mouth just enough to allow the bullet to be seated without shaving. On none gas checked bullets like 405 grain 45-70 bullets I flare my cases.

One more thing I'll ad, that's the 13 "thirteen" grain Harris load.

If you are new to reloading you may want to start with jecketed bullets and traditional published loads. Shooting cast with non published loads that involve reduced powder charges can be very dangerous for the inexperienced loader. I'm all for shooting cast but I just thought I'd mention to be very carful with the Harris load as 13 grains is optimum but I've had pressure issues with 14 grains in some rifles. I own 5 303 chambered rifles and all of them shoot well with the Harris load but for 5 rifles I need 4 different sized bullets.

If you are going to shoot cast in a 303 you should probably slug your bore. I have 303's that slug anywhere from .311"-.315" and ive seen some slug up to .317".

Nice thing about the Harris load is it's impossible to do a double charge in a 303 as it will overflow with powder.

Happy loading!!!

 

[infideleggwelder]

thanks to all for the info. but the neck size question remains. when i use the sizing and primer removing die, i have noticed that if i use the press to the full extent, it nicely reforms the casing to "factory" casing specs. the lube is pretty much rubbed off and the neck is clean.
if i don't press to full extent, the primer still pops out, the neck is free of lube, and the rest of the casing is untouched and keeps it`s fire formed shape due to the nature of the casings tapered design. they fit perfectly in the chamber of the rifle they were fired from, and the one factory jacketed bullet i have seats nicely. is this neck sizing?

i would start with jacketed bullets, but we all know how not easy it is to find anything that will properly fit a 303

 

[blauber]

I don't think you're "neck sizing" to answer your question. There is a considerable amount of force required (min 25 lbs.) to neck size and close the collet around the mandrel (the shaft that is .001" less than bullet diameter).

Just follow the Lee instructions - not sure a collet die is included in your 3 die set. You should have a FL sizer, dead length bullet seater and crimper...in a red box? If you don't have a collet die (yellow box), I would recommend getting one vs. fiddling with the FL die to neck size the case only. If you do have a collet die, shellholder to base of die then at least one full turn and perhaps 1 1/4 turn of the die will get you sizing correctly.

 

[infideleggwelder]

no collet die, got red box with three dies. will order said yellow box. thanks much

 

[supernova]

Ah, that changes things! There should be an FL (full length sizing) die, seating die and a factory crimp die. Gotcha This die set does not include a neck sizing die but you can still neck size with your full length die. You can back your FL die out until it does not bump the shoulder. It will partially size the body and also size the neck. Here's how I set them up, and there may be other ways and good tricks that others can chime in with. To start, put a clean, lubed case in the shellholder and run the ram all the way up with no die in the press. Next:
Remove the decapping pin from the die
Thread the die into the press until it makes firm contact with the case
Lower the ram and thread the die in one turn
Run the ram up then lower it and observe the case
Check where the die has rubbed the case, it will be along the body. The neck will not have been touched yet. Marking the case helps. Draw a line down the case with a marker or something so you can track die contact.
Repeat (screw die in one turn, size, observe case)
Eventually the die will begin sizing the neck, keep making adjustments until you see it make contact with the shoulder (again, by marking and checking for rubbing). The full length of the neck will not be completely sized. Test fit brass in your chamber as you go. The shoulder is pushed forward as the case is sized down then the die pushes it back, but we are stopping before that happens. You can actually set your die to where it will make cases longer than your chamber. Test fit the case to make sure you haven't pushed the shoulder forward. If you went too far you can back the die out and size a new case, then make sure it chambers. Or you can keep turning the die about 1/16 turn at a time and recheck until the bolt closes on a sized case with no extra resistance. The first method will stop sizing before the shoulder is pushed forward. The second will size just until the shoulder is pushed back enough for the brass to fit in the chamber. Again, use 1/16 turns. This equals roughly .001" shoulder bump with each adjustment. Once you are happy with how things are set, reinstall the decapping pin and size a couple case. Test fit again to be sure they're being sized enough. I know some of this may be confusing so ask as many questions as it takes!

 

[blauber]

Ah, that changes things! There should be an FL (full length sizing) die, seating die and a factory crimp die. Gotcha This die set does not include a neck sizing die but you can still neck size with your full length die. You can back your FL die out until it does not bump the shoulder. It will partially size the body and also size the neck. Here's how I set them up, and there may be other ways and good tricks that others can chime in with. To start, put a clean, lubed case in the shellholder and run the ram all the way up with no die in the press. Next:
Remove the decapping pin from the die
Thread the die into the press until it makes firm contact with the case
Lower the ram and thread the die in one turn
Run the ram up then lower it and observe the case
Check where the die has rubbed the case, it will be along the body. The neck will not have been touched yet. Marking the case helps. Draw a line down the case with a marker or something so you can track die contact.
Repeat (screw die in one turn, size, observe case)
Eventually the die will begin sizing the neck, keep making adjustments until you see it make contact with the shoulder (again, by marking and checking for rubbing). The full length of the neck will not be completely sized. Test fit brass in your chamber as you go. The shoulder is pushed forward as the case is sized down then the die pushes it back, but we are stopping before that happens. You can actually set your die to where it will make cases longer than your chamber. Test fit the case to make sure you haven't pushed the shoulder forward. If you went too far you can back the die out and size a new case, then make sure it chambers. Or you can keep turning the die about 1/16 turn at a time and recheck until the bolt closes on a sized case with no extra resistance. The first method will stop sizing before the shoulder is pushed forward. The second will size just until the shoulder is pushed back enough for the brass to fit in the chamber. Again, use 1/16 turns. This equals roughly .001" shoulder bump with each adjustment. Once you are happy with how things are set, reinstall the decapping pin and size a couple case. Test fit again to be sure they're being sized enough. I know some of this may be confusing so ask as many questions as it takes!

^ Or get a collet die in the yellow box, highly recommended until you learn the trade. Some of above is not correct, as in FL Sizer will not partially size the body when set to size the neck only nor will a FL sizer enable case length adjustments "longer than your chamber" nor is 1/16" of a turn equivalent to 001" shoulder bump.

There is a youtube guy called "ammosmith" that has amazing videos on Lee Collet Die "how to". Take a look - from there you will learn to FL size after your cases become hard to chamber and may "bump" the shoulder along with sizing the case body using a Lee FL sizer or other dies such as Redding Body Die. There are many threads on here if you do a search to assist in your learning...you don't need any lube with the Lee Collet btw.

All the best,

 

[blauber]

^ Or get a collet die in the yellow box, highly recommended until you learn the trade. Some of above is not correct, as in FL Sizer will not partially size the body when set to size the neck only nor will a FL sizer enable case length adjustments "longer than your chamber" nor is 1/16" of a turn equivalent to 001" shoulder bump.

There is a youtube guy called "ammosmith" that has amazing videos on Lee Collet Die "how to". Take a look - from there you will learn to FL size after your cases become hard to chamber and may "bump" the shoulder along with sizing the case body using a Lee FL sizer or other dies such as Redding Body Die. There are many threads on here if you do a search to assist in your learning...you don't need any lube with the Lee Collet btw.

LOL...I can admit when I make a mistake, and I did! For the record, I use Collet Dies exclusively but not Lee FL dies or their dead length bullet seater (I use Redding Body and Forster dies respectively). So noted case body sizing and 1/16" of a turn for .001" shoulder adjustments ("shoulder bump" backwards or towards case head) above - sounds right. The other point I still contend is not correct re: "longer than your chamber".

Supernova - my apology, as I was "not correct" and don't want any misinformation going out to a new reloader.

 

[supernova]

Its all good, man! Let me substantiate my claims a little and I admit they may not be universal to all bottle neck cartridges. When setting my dies up for minimal shoulder bump, let's say .005" for my semi's. As I work through my above procedure, I regularly check base to shoulder datum measurement with a headspace comparator. It has been my experience that just before the die starts to push the shoulder back, the shoulder swells forward a little. Then as it makes contact it obviously pushes the shoulder back. In my case, the cases grow long enough to be an interference fit and though one might be able to squeeze them in and get the bolt closed we can both agree that's a silly way to go. Also in my case, my dies start to size the body before the neck. Again, that may be different with other cartridges and even dies. It is not a great deal of sizing, certainly not as much as sizing to the shellholder and will be different dependant on chamber and die dimensions. Also, whether or not the full length of the neck is sized will vary depending on die dimensions and how far down you go. Because the die is not contacting the shellholder, there may be a little gap between the neck/shoulder edge on the case and die. Shoulder angles of the die and chamber can affect this, along with just how a guy sets up his dies. And a big +1 for collet dies! I own and love a few of them. They do an excellent job and you can skip lubing. I like my Forster BR seating die for match bullets, Lee's DL seater has a universal .30 cal plug that doesn't do well with match bullets. Its good for hunting/plinking bullets though.

^ Or get a collet die in the yellow box, highly recommended until you learn the trade. Some of above is not correct, as in FL Sizer will not partially size the body when set to size the neck only nor will a FL sizer enable case length adjustments "longer than your chamber" nor is 1/16" of a turn equivalent to 001" shoulder bump.

There is a youtube guy called "ammosmith" that has amazing videos on Lee Collet Die "how to". Take a look - from there you will learn to FL size after your cases become hard to chamber and may "bump" the shoulder along with sizing the case body using a Lee FL sizer or other dies such as Redding Body Die. There are many threads on here if you do a search to assist in your learning...you don't need any lube with the Lee Collet btw.

LOL...I can admit when I make a mistake, and I did! For the record, I use Collet Dies exclusively but not Lee FL dies or their dead length bullet seater (I use Redding Body and Forster dies respectively). So noted case body sizing and 1/16" of a turn for .001" shoulder adjustments ("shoulder bump" backwards or towards case head) above - sounds right. The other point I still contend is not correct re: "longer than your chamber".

Supernova - my apology, as I was "not correct" and don't want any misinformation going out to a new reloader.