Neck turning Alpha brass in 6mm GT

As much as I have disagreed with KThomas over the years, I do have to agree with him on this part although I know he is just stirring the pot. I also believe that YoDave and Kt are actually agreeing on the same point that neck turning is more in the eye of the beholder than tangible benefit depending on the level of accuracy required from your sport.
AcrashB you are correct that you need to neck turn because you are “making” a new caliber case from another case and you need to remanufacture the case to correctly fit for safety reasons among other things. I also have heard of “tests” being done but I haven’t read many in print. For example, in Mission, B.C. a benchrester (champion level) tested the amount of neck side clearance in his rifles. He found the more side clearance he put into his rifle chamber the tighter the accuracy became so he shoots large side clearance chambers and wins. Never published but locally known and accepted.
Benchrest is the most demanding of absolute accuracy, F-Class is next and finally a long, long way down the accuracy requirements is the PRS game although some shooters are beginning to understand. Benchrest fires very few rounds in a match and the barrel is cleaned very often so the rounds and chambers mostly are shot very clean. I haven't shot benchrest but I understand the groups under the 1's are required to win. Barrels are also considered "shot-out" after a few hundred rounds.
F-Class matches, on the other hand, are probably more demanding on equipment and ammunition than any shooting sport because matches are long strings of 25 rounds+, the barrels come off the line extremely hot and dirty, multiple long string matches are shot each day and ammunition can be extremely high pressure to chase a node. Yet we demand them to maintain very tight groups through it all and a long barrel life. Winning accuracy standards for rifles is .25 to .3 MOA out to 900 meters/1000 yards else the barrel should be pulled. Barrel life over 2000 rounds for 284’s and 1200 rounds for magnums is about normal.
PRS, on the other hand, have very loose accuracy requirements/standards from my experience and most PRS shooters aren't that skilled in long range shooting at least from my experience being around them. They seem more concerned about buying and wearing high priced gear than shooting accurately. Why worry about neck-turning when you can shoot factory ammo and win.
This leads to the augments like I see above. Benchresters see value in tight chambers and precision fitted components and possible they are right in their game where they only use 5 to 10 cases ever, clean their barrels after a few rounds and reload at the range. I shoot F-Class and take 800 rounds of ammo to a big match. I have also found that tight neck diameter chambers with small neck clearances cause real issues like pressure excursions, blown primers and flyers as the fouling builds up so that now I run large diameter no-turn necks with large side clearances. I also see no need, from my experience, to neck turn, and remember my standard for accuracy is .25 moa at 900 meters after a 25 round string with a smoking hot barrel. I have found that other reloading procedures are more important.
I believe that the game you shoot drives your understanding of requirements so it is counter-productive to ague which is the "better" procedure, turn or no-turn.
From a PRS shooters perspective shooting in a SAAMI chamber at huge targets, why bother.
From an F-Class shooter if you believe it does help then you will. More and more of the guys I know have quit turning because other things help better and not turning saves time in producing large amounts of ammunition.
From a benchrester with a tight chamber so standard brass brass won’t fit then you must.
To argue among yourselves that neck turning is a must and written in stone is fruitless.

Agree with most of what you have said, but not sure where you are shooting PRS, but the matches I have attended in the US and Meaford, the top level guys had there act together despite their flashy shirts. I would argue that they are all about accuracy, correcting to center of plate is their focus at the higher levels. True they don't need the same level of Precision that is required in F Class but that is how the game is set up. Targets generally 1.5 to 2,5 MOA. Although at this years Finale and AG cup targets were often 1 MOA and under
 
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Is it just the outside?
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A person can add steps to reloading to check for improvements or you can take away steps to see if you don’t need the extra steps.
1) As frequently noted and shown in the photographs, it is the thickness of the case neck so no, not just the outside
2) This works, generally, for large improvements only. For small improvements, an experiment needs to be double-blind and use a considerable amount of ammo. Also, as you noted later, much time and money gets expended. If someone has already done a double-blind, statistically significant test that applies to another's (in this case my) use-case, then much time and money is saved.
Overall: why re-invent the wheel? Even if I could?
 
acrashb. Rick Jamison, writing in shooting Times, did a decent test and published the results for hunting rifles with SAAMI chambers about 20 years ago and found there was no value for the work. Granted this was in thin barreled hunting rifles with loose chambered but his test was methodical and decent. He found no difference in accuracy. Sorry I missed that part about the Alpha brass. In my 284's I have turned my brass to the same .0135" dimensions but that was for a different reason than accuracy. I don't neck turn in my 6.5 Creedmoor's at all. It bassically comes down to, if you feel it helps, then do it and forget what the "experts" say. Match shooting is a mental game for the most part, and if it helps you mentally then it is worth the effort.

Longbow. I have been to a couple of bigger PRS matches for curiosity but have also had various PRS shooters show up at a number of F-Class matches both here and, in the US, and they almost all performed poorly. Just my experience. Most bitterly complain about not being allowed to use their muzzle brakes or being isolated while doing so. I must admit I would not do well shooting PRS because I am too old and can't run under the time frames the PRS requires. Just a different game. If I was younger, it would be interesting for me.
 
acrashb. Rick Jamison, writing in shooting Times, did a decent test and published the results for hunting rifles with SAAMI chambers about 20 years ago and found there was no value for the work.
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Thanks, that's a good start. I would need to see the write-up to establish for myself that it was double-blind and statistically significant (e.g., well-designed and executed) - but I"ve been unable to google-up a link. Would you have one? Or, if you have a copy sitting on your shelf, would you be so good as to scan / photography the article and forward it?
 
? collet dies don't push brass "out", they uniform ID against a mandrel. the documented taper in neck thickness and any other variance would still be there. not sure what you're getting at.

So the ID is uniform against a straight mandrel. Leaves the outside with the imperfections. Not sure about removing complete taper, but you said the taper on the brass was in the ID and OD.
 
acrashb: I don't have it but only remembered it from years ago. From what I remembered it only showed a very slight improvement (second decimal) on a hunting rifle.

KT: I agree with that statement
 
acrashb: I don't have it but only remembered it from years ago. From what I remembered it only showed a very slight improvement (second decimal) on a hunting rifle


Thanks for checking back in. No surprise re: hunting rifle, any small improvement would be swamped by other factors, e.g., bedding, flexible barrel, loose chamber (maybe),ordinary rifling, etc.

PS: love the inadvertent emoticon at the end of my handle ;)
 
? collet dies don't push brass "out", they uniform ID against a mandrel. the documented taper in neck thickness and any other variance would still be there. not sure what you're getting at.

As I said, there is more to neck turning then just shaving off a bit of brass.. and why I use and recommend the Lee collet neck die. Yes, the way this die works, it can push flow from the inside to the outside, where neck turning removes it. This utility is best done from the start before things get large and hardened.

With the typical pressures in bottleneck cases, brass flows with every firing... allowed to flow enough, you can develop donuts at the base of the neck. Many F Open shooters throat their chambers very long so the bullet bearing surface ends above where this bulge forms... the brass doesnt last long enough for this bulge to get in the way so neck turning can be perceived to have no value beyond any clean up necessary to fit the sizing bushing. Most Open chambers use sharper shoulders as well.

In FTR, brass flow is a very real issue and constant maintenance is a good idea.

Note, case shoulder angle has a huge affect on how much flow you will see in the case necks. Shallow case like the 308win and 223 Rem, will flow a bunch when elevated pressures are used. Sharp 40deg shoulders may not build up enough to get around the 'corner' before the case hits the trash can.

Often, mag fed ammo has the bullet bearing surface protrude below the base of the neck... right into where the donut will be. Load ammo using brass with donuts... it is going to affect pressures, which will affect accuracy and sometimes, function.

note if necking down brass to form a new case or when pushing a shoulder lower vs the parent case, you may already have a bulge of brass at the base of the neck. Neck reaming is not always affective (unless you have an in to get specific diameter reamers). collet neck die and neck turning can help resolve this.

As with most things in shooting, it really boils down to your application, objectives and desired performance. The key is to fully understand the process of interest... what it does, what it doesn't do and how all of this can help you.

Jerry
 
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As I said, there is more to neck turning then just shaving off a bit of brass
Jerry
Thanks Jerry. Reading your posts carefully is worthwhile. For example, now I know more about the relationship between shoulder angle and brass flow :) In this case 6mm GT, a 35° is closer to 40° than 23° (.223 / 5.56) or 20° (.308), so I may avoid the 'dreaded donut' a bit longer or for the useful case life (loose primer pockets, in my experience). Something I had not previously considered, but it makes sense.
 
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So for those keeping score:
- I'm really uncomfortable with tapered neck thickness
- I'm somewhat uncomfortable with thinning the neck to fully even the neck thickness (would be about .0125)

So I'm splitting the baby at .0135", as below. I don't mind neck-turning, you don't have to do it with every reload. .0135 becomes a skim near the mouth and a full, but not deep, cut near the shoulder.

Thanks all for your input.

20240204T192741_6mm_GT_alpha_turned_.0135_100_lrw.jpg
 
Thanks!

I'd like to think the case will shoot better with the more uniform neck.

Now that you've turned down and made more consistent the turned down neck, do you know the max OD of the neck - on a loaded round? And do you know the neck diameter on your chamber?

I've seen it said online - and personally have a bit of experience that corroborates - that a too-low neck clearance reduces accuracy. Putting a number on it is difficult, but perhaps 0.004 - 0.007" clearance is desirable.

Another interesting data point is to fire your round in your chamber, and then try to hand-insert a bullet back into the fired case. Does it go with no resistance, slight resistance, or not at all? I think this is another sign of how much neck clearance was when fired (plus other factors like how hard the brass is).
 
Now that you've turned down and made more consistent the turned down neck, do you know the max OD of the neck - on a loaded round? And do you know the neck diameter on your chamber?
1) it would be .0135*2+.243
2) I will when the barrelled action is back from chambering and I do a cast. Could be eight weeks more. But I'm not going for a tight or loose neck, just uniforming of the case. The only way it can be tight is if the reamer was poorly made; loose, if the gunsmith was really careless or the reamer is poorly made. Time will tell.
 
I'd like to think the case will shoot better with the more uniform neck.
I think so too. I keep looking for and asking for a solid, double-blind test, but in lieu of that common sense and consensus is fine by me. It seems obvious that this will help, the only question is how much does it matter compared to other factors, and how does that play out in various shooting sports? I have to turn for my bench gun (.0086"), do I have to for a PRS gun? Nonetheless, I almost enjoy turning so it's an easy decision. The "load and shoot" crowd with Alpha brass includes some very successful PRS shooters, but PRS is less about maximum precision and more about reading the wind.
 
You could always keep some brass unturned aside, and over several range visits, compare your group sizes between turned and unturned batches. You might see something over a few months.
 
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