Neck Turning Question

ARH77

ARH77

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Hi, I'm newish to shooting and new to reloading. I have some reloading equipment on order and it should be here in a couple weeks. I've been doing a lot of reading on reloading and trying to figure out the best most effective way to reload (for me). I only punch paper, I've never hunted, so I'm looking for precision in a round.

I did a search on here an couldn't find an answer so I'm posting it, I'm hoping I didn't miss the answer somewhere.

I've read all about neck turning and that some say it's good to stop the random fliers and some say it's useless without a custom reamer, bla bla bla. I'm not interested in the argument over how effective it is or isn't.

My question is this;

Lets say the round is a .308, you have a new batch of virgin brass. You turn the necks all to 0.0135" making them all uniform, you load them and shoot them numerous times.

1) Will the necks stay a uniform 0.0135" over 10 shootings?
2) Since brass stretches with firing and resizing will this cause the necks to get thinner over time due to shooting and resizing?
3) If the necks do get thinner do they stay uniform, or do they get out of round again (have a thick and thin side/spots)?
4) When they are annealed after 4-6 firings will that have any effect on the neck (other then making them soft again)?
5) Anything else I should consider?

I'm not sure if I want to go through neck turning or not, I'm a bit OCD so it appeals to me, however if I had to turn them after every firing then that adds a lot of additional work.

Thanks for the help.
 
Neck turning is mostly done when necking down a case. .308 to .243 for example. Isn't really a thing you'd do otherwise. The necks do stretch but don't normally get thinner. They'll get out of round, but that is fixed in the sizer die.
Annealing is done when you get one cracked case from work hardening. Usually a cracked case mouth caused by repeated resizing and firing. Not normally after only 3 or 4 loads. You pitch that one and anneal the rest. Regular propane torch and a pan of tap water.
 
sunray said:
Neck turning is mostly done when necking down a case. .308 to .243 for example. Isn't really a thing you'd do otherwise. The necks do stretch but don't normally get thinner. They'll get out of round, but that is fixed in the sizer die.
Annealing is done when you get one cracked case from work hardening. Usually a cracked case mouth caused by repeated resizing and firing. Not normally after only 3 or 4 loads. You pitch that one and anneal the rest. Regular propane torch and a pan of tap water.
Click to expand...


this is the one part i will , well i wouldn't say disagree with, but for those who shoot for pure accuracy, neck turning, combined with good seating die, will substantially reduce bullet run out. and that will help weather youre running a custome cut chamber, or if its been cut with an "off the shelf"match reamer.. a new comer to precision, or a hunter wont notice the difference, but they likely aren't shooting 800+ yards either, atleast not with the skill set to do it effectivly,,, as we all know the further out you shoot the more any inconsistencies become apparent

FWIW, for the 45-60min it takes me to expand necks, turn, and resize 100 cases, its not a step i mind doing especially using bushing dies
 
ARH77

Below is the problem with neck turning, meaning you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear and you need to start off with good brass.

neckcenter_zps94286f86.jpg


I have the Redding case neck gauge below for checking and grading the cases, meaning worthy of neck turning.

reddingneckgaugex250_zps88727434.jpg


I then check the cases for neck runout, after these two checks the case gets a pass/fail for neck turning. In the background on the left is the Hornady concentricity gauge. When its all said and done with the average factory rifle and average cartridge cases, bending or straightening the case with the Hornady unit is faster than looking for good brass and neck turning.

runout003_zpsd19b7cc3.jpg


Bottom line, the more gauges you get the more time you spend reloading and spend less time shooting.
 
bigedp51 said:
ARH77

Below is the problem with neck turning, meaning you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear and you need to start off with good brass.
Click to expand...

thats all well and great, except that is pre-fired messurements,

any one who neck turns is probably neck sizing only, so 2nd 3rd 4th fireing and so on, the case will be fire formed to your chamber.. if you used a quality reamer and a quality smith, then the chamber should be concentrical and centered on the bore. if your case necks are off centered after the 1st fireing, well your chambers F**ked and you might as well not bother


not to mention, the point of neck turning isnt to center the neck on the case, its to make a uniform neck to allow for less run out and consistent neck tension
 
ultimate_monkey

You can't make bad brass into good brass, and the amount of firings will "NOT" correct uneven case wall thicknesses. There is a reason why people buy Lapua brass, and that is quality and uniformity.

I'm going through three five gallon buckets of once fired .223/5.56 brass looking for cases worthy of shooting from my Savage .223 Heavy barrel rifle. The problem is this brass I have was a lower grade and quality (seconds or rejects) and was loaded for AR15 blasting/practice ammo.

193nato004_zpsdbc69558.jpg


193nato001_zpsf7b50cad.jpg


193nato002_zps3c5d9286.jpg


The problem is Federal is loading and selling our military Lake City cases that failed military inspection standards. All of the three gallon buckets of Federal, Remington and Lake City brass I have were seconds, or rejects and sold as cheap practice ammunition.

I have new Winchester and Nosler .223 cases that are good and better brass and worthy of neck turning, BUT thats just part of the story. The Winchester cases need to be weight sorted, uniformed and then neck turned, but competitive shooters are buying Lupua brass and just loading and shooting without any case prep.

I stand by my first posting, it is a waste of time neck turning bad brass, as my first illustration shows the case will not be concentric to the bore. And it has nothing to do with how many times the case has been fired.

Below a RCBS Case Mastering Gauge being used to check case wall uniformity, the same gauge is used for checking runout. So again, if the brass isn't a uniform thickness especially in the neck area the brass isn't worth doing any prep work to.

RCBSCMG_zpsb95d3710.jpg
 
I'm not saying that fireing will sort out case neck thickness, I'm saying that fireing a case will form it to the chamber , if your chamber is cut concentric and true , the neck and shoulder will form to that. Thus being centred and true .

I agree sh|t brass is Sh|t brass. But in the pictures of "what's wrong with neck turning" that off set neck/shoulder Will get formed to the chamber , and no longer be off center
 
Neck turning serves little purpose unless you have a match chamber, otherwise the tolerances between the run-out in the case neck diameter and the chamber neck diameter won't effect the alignment of the bullet with the bore Having said that, if you're particularly anal, you might want to turn any necks whose run-out exceeds 4 thou. Once you do that, and shoot a few cartridges with turned necks against a few that are unturned, you'll discover if you are gaining anything or just wasting your time. When turning the neck, you will note that the cutter doesn't trim all the way around, this is normal, and if you continue cutting, until it does cut all the way around, the necks will become very thin, and you might actually decrease your round to round uniformity, and might even get to the point where a standard sizing die that doesn't use a bushing wont re-size the neck sufficiently to hold the bullet, and you might have to go to a much smaller bushing if you use that type. When neck turning, cut right down to the junction of the neck and the shoulder. By the way, the fired cartridge will mirror the internal dimensions of the chamber, but it won't make a neck with a uniform thickness non-uniform and it won't make an non-uniform neck thickness uniform. But rather than turning the necks, which is of questionable benefit, your time might be better spent finding which step(s) in your reloading procedure increases run-out of the fired cartridge. So check the neck run-out of a fired cartridge, then check it again after resizing, and again after seating the bullet. You might find that the shell holder retainer is cocking the the shell holder leaving it misaligned, you might find that the recess in the ram of your press is not cut square, and you might find that your dies might align better with an O-ring under the lock ring, both of the die and the decapping stem and the seating stem. I replaced the shell holder retainer with an O-ring to allow the shell holder to move freely in it's slot which enables it to find its own center. Sooner or later you will also come across out of spec shell holders which can present various headaches.
 
Boomer just posted the best advice above and did a very good job of it.

At the "The Rifleman's Journal" website Germán A. Salazar's shooting buddy said the following.

"I get my best accuracy when the case fits the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case"

Meaning he full length resizes his cases and gives the case "wiggle room" to be self aligning with the bore. A neck sized case with defects in case wall thickness will cause the bullet to be misaligned with the bore and effect accuracy. If you do not have a custom rifle and have a standard grade factory made rifle neck turning might be a waste of time.

I'm sorting through three five gallon buckets of once fired .223/5.56 brass fired by our local police and SWAT teams in their AR15 rifles. The most frustrating of this brass are the Remington .223 cases, I have never seen cases with so many variations in neck thickness and excess runout.

I went out and bought some Nosler Custom brass and inspected this brass and was very impressed with its uniformity. I found out a few weeks ago much of the cheaper practice/blasting ammo made for the AR15 is made from lower grade cases or rejects not suitable for normal factory ammunition..

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, meaning your money and time ahead by buying quality made brass that doesn't require hours of prep work to make it uniform.
 
For what it is worth, my experience with Winchester brass is that a gentle neck turning to trim off high spots (20% max cut) does reduce variance between rounds. My runout is more smaller and more consistent on once fired neck turned. Than once fired no turned.
 
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