Need 2nd opinion: Inglis, clone or original?

Gefreiter

Gefreiter

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Requesting your expertise to help me statute whether a recently purchased Inglis Browning is an original or a cheap clone (e.g. from Indian Ordnance Factories). I've posted some close-ups on the following link:

http://s1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/Jeanfo9/Inglis%20for%20real%20or%20clone/?albumview=slideshow

I have a large collection of military pistols from the Mauser C-96 to the recent SIGs. Many are excellent condition but most are seasoned with all the normal marks of time or service. Upon reception, what drew my suspicion on this Inglis No.1 (Chinese contract) is the outstanding mechanical condition as if it was freshly out of arsenal refurbishment. In fact, it's almost like new in the following aspects: hardly any wear marks on slide, frame; barrel is almost pristine (probably saw very low count of rounds). Tangent sight is unworn, with very snug/stiff fit. Firing pin, spring, locking plate like new.

However, the finish is very uneven in colour and shine. Some areas of the frame are polished, others show evidence of abrasion an buffing. There is porosity evidence on some surface areas (the metallurgist is speaking here), which is often a telltale of lower quality steel. Absolutely none of that on my 1979 FN Browning.

I was not aware that there existed cheap copies of Inglis, as there are for say, the M1911A1 from Norinco. The seller is requesting feedback to close the sale loop. My local club specialist being out of town, I searched the Internet today and found out about Indian Ordnance Factories.

I have never seen a Inglis Browning "in person" except a long time ago in Ottawa War Museum. So I have no reference. I beleive the Inglis never reached the quality finish of FN in Herstall (certainly not of the recent ones and probably not of the old WWII examples from Belgium). But how rough is the normal rough finish of a run of the mill Inglis?. See the pictures. The three S/N imprints correspond (barrel, slide and frame) although the depth and uniformity of the numerals are uneven and very shallow. The imprints do not show the regularity and straight alignment that I see in the pictures of the excellent Historical Arms Series no. 15 "The Inglis Browning Hi-Power Pistol". The "Canadian "crossed flags" proof mark is barely visible.

Refurbished original or cheap clone? You know what they say: "If it's looks too good to be true, it's probably not." Have not shot it yet and will not if it's a clone...

Thanks for your kind attention and advice. Gefreiter.
 
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If you want to sell it cheap I'll take it.... I don't think that it is a clone, I've seen these old ones in even better shape. Some even have the water decals on them still.
 
Post pics, when you know what the real deal looks like looking at some detailed pics will help.

That being said, their is really nothing to worry about. The excellent condition could indicate "issued, never used" and the wear sounds like holster wear. As for the porous finish, the parkerizing finish is a porous type of finish, thats how it protects as the pores trap oil and grease which help repel corrosion and moisture.

Also note, these are wartime pistols and in the middle of a war, factories focused more on functionality then attractiveness.

But if you are really concerned, my offer is $200 Plus a shiny button.
 
Looks refinished aka blued, Inglis HP's were parkerized. Here's a very good example to compare.

HiPowerInglis.jpg


Serial numbers were not blued over, serial numbers were engraved after the finish was applied.

See:
inglis-3.jpg


Looks like a shooter, it's been blued and sanded.
 
Century Arms of Montreal (before the move to the USA) imported a large number of these Hi-Powers from China in the 80's and many were re-blued by the Chinese. I think this pistol is one of the re-blued ones from that lot.
 
LeeEnfieldNo.4_mk1 said:
Post pics, when you know what the real deal looks like looking at some detailed pics will help.

That being said, their is really nothing to worry about. The excellent condition could indicate "issued, never used" and the wear sounds like holster wear. As for the porous finish, the parkerizing finish is a porous type of finish, thats how it protects as the pores trap oil and grease which help repel corrosion and moisture.

...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. Note that pictures can be seen in Photobucket by clicking on the link. I've edited the link to facilitate redirection.

Don't want to sound like I'm lecturing you, but I do have a bachelor's degree in Metallurgy engineering:

Porosity (not to be confused with pores resulting from Parkerizing), are small pockets (voids) that are put in evidence when a cut is made through the metal, slicing through these voids or inclusions. The resulting "holes" are quite visible and can vary in size from a few thousandth of an inch to much more. It is a sign of an "uncleaned metal". During elaboration of metals, including steel, additives can be thrown in to solubilize or precipitate impurities, meaning impurities will dissolve (blend) and become invisible or they will form a separate compound, usually lighter, so it can float to the surface where it can be skimmed or cut off once cooled.

The Parkerizing process is basically a uniform chemical attack. The parts are "cooked" in phosphoric acid near boiling temperature for 1/2 hour or more. This creates a very adherent thin oxide layer, blocking further corrosion (i.e. "rusting"). The resulting pores are much finer (in hundredth of .001" i.e. 0,00001") and are invisible unless you magnify the surface with a microscope. Compare the even finish on the nice colour picture of a No. 2 Inglis provided by Pblatzz.

Thanks for your precious input, Gefreiter.
 
Gefreiter said:
Requesting your expertise to help me statute whether a recently purchased Inglis Browning is an original or a cheap clone (e.g. from Indian Ordnance Factories). I've posted some close-ups on the following link:snip... Upon reception, what drew my suspicion on this Inglis No.1 (Chinese contract) is the outstanding mechanical condition as if it was freshly out of arsenal refurbishment. In fact, it's almost like new in the following aspects: hardly any wear marks on slide, frame; barrel is almost pristine (probably saw very low count of rounds). Tangent sight is unworn, with very snug/stiff fit. Firing pin, spring, locking plate like new.

However, the finish is very uneven in colour and shine. Some areas of the frame are polished, others show evidence of abrasion an buffing. There is porosity evidence on some surface areas (the metallurgist is speaking here), which is often a telltale of lower quality steel. Absolutely none of that on my 1979 FN Browning.snip...
I have never seen a Inglis Browning "in person" except a long time ago in Ottawa War Museum. So I have no reference. I beleive the Inglis never reached the quality finish of FN in Herstall (certainly not of the recent ones and probably not of the old WWII examples from Belgium). But how rough is the normal rough finish of a run of the mill Inglis?. See the pictures. The three S/N imprints correspond (barrel, slide and frame) although the depth and uniformity of the numerals are uneven and very shallow. The imprints do not show the regularity and straight alignment that I see in the pictures of the excellent Historical Arms Series no. 15 "The Inglis Browning Hi-Power Pistol". The "Canadian "crossed flags" proof mark is barely visible.

Refurbished original or cheap clone? You know what they say: "If it's looks too good to be true, it's probably not." Have not shot it yet and will not if it's a clone...

Thanks for your kind attention and advice. Gefreiter.
Click to expand...

The Indians have cloned the fixed sighted No2MkI* pistol, not the No1MkI* tangent sighted pistol.

Your Inglis No1MkI* has been refinished. The sight leaf should be polished on the number section, and the serial numbers should be in the white (engraved through the parkerizing finish).
Your pistol does not indicate "porosity" of the material, it indicates a refinish over a corrosion pitted surface. The refinish method did not deposit material to fill the pitting.
The original finish was a finely grained phosphate "parkerized" finish. It would not compare to a finely polished commercial FN-Browning pistols "commercial" blue quality of finish.

The "8" in the serial number being engraved "up-side down" is a "well-known" feature on many Inglis High-Power pistols.

I would recommend that you purchase a book called "Inglis Diamond" by Clive Law, the HAS pamphlet is very dated, and just a pamphlet guide. The "Inglis Diamond" would probably have answered each of your specific questions.
 
I can't see the image due to my location at this time, but ALL chinese contract Inglis' have a "CH" preceeding the serial number. If you have that, its genuine.
 
grips with remians or even complete decals on the grips are not as uncommon in Canada as one might think, also repro decals that are water transfer like the originals are around.

In the states, they are probably more uncommon.

If it weren't for the sights and lack of double-action, the Inglis HP would be my favorite 9mm I think.
 
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