Need .303 SMLE advice
- Thread starter TANK1867
- Start date
Well, I would say that for a full wood SMLE, depending on the gun and many other variables, the range could be $250.00 for a deal up to $650.00+. I own a couple of them, and $650.00 is the most I have paid in recent times, but it was a rifle which I needed for my collection. Start low, you can alway's come up!
The true SMLE is the old Number 1 rifle, properly termed the Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield. The vast bulk are the Mark III and Mark III* models and the overwhelming bulk of those were made during the First World War and are dated 1914 through 1918. Early-Wartime rifles command a premium because it took some time to ramp production up. Pre-War rifles are very scarce and are dated 1907 through 1913. This rifle was produced again in England during the Second War and often is found with bewildering markings due to the "Dispersals" production scheme. Very early wartime rifles (1940) can be marked BSA.
The SMLE is identified by the open rear sight partway down the barrel. Identifying information is found under the bolt handle. About 60% were made at Enfield, about 30% by BSA, about 5% by London Small Arms (LSA) and 2 or 3% each by Standard Small Arms (SSA) and National Rifle Factory (NRF). AUSTRALIA manufactured this rifle from 1912 (1912 is very rare) through to about 1956; they are marked LITHGOW. INDIA manufactured this rifle from 1913 through to at least 1968; they are marked ISHAPORE or GRI.
Under the Bolt Handle, you will find the Royal Signet, place of manufacture, date of manufacture and precise Model of the rifle. NRF and SSA rifles have only a weird-looking Crown; the factory mark is on the left side of the action, just to the left of the bolt body.
Prices seem to start about $300 and go up from there. For a good, solid, clean original rifle, expect to pay about $400 or more. Eats standard .303 ammo, 10-round mag, the fastest and toughest bolt rifle ever built.
As any rifle, the BORE is critical, much moreso than many other factors. Look for sharp, deep grooves and sharp lands. Rifling is 5 grooves, left-hand, 1 turn in 10 inches.
EARLY SMLE rifles were made between 1902 and 1907 and are VERY hard to find, especially in original condition. These include the Mark I, I*, I**, I***. There was no Mark 2 in .303; the Mark II was a .22". There ARE "Converted Mark IV" SMLE rifles, made up from old Boer War rifles, and they are super-scarce. They are only about 1 in 3000 o actual production.
There are more than 100 variants of the SMLE rifle so, whatever you pick, do get back to us. They ALL have a story to tell. Look for a tiny stamp on the Receiver Ring of a little arrow in a capital letter C: this denotes a Canadian-used rifle for sure.
AFTER the Great War, development continued on the Lee rifle. The Mark V was built in 1922 and 1924 only, super rare: rceiver sight, special handguard, extra barrel-band. The Mark VI had the muzzle exposed for about 2 inches (previous rifles were stocked up RIGHT to the muzzle), a checkered fore-end, a rear-sight mounted above the bolt and all were made at Enfield in very small numbers in the late 1920s through to 1931. In 1931 this was standardised as the NUMBER 4 RIFLE and was the standard for new rifles made during War Two. There were three factories in England nd they were made in the USA (Savage) and Canada (Long Branch) as well. Of the 5 plants, likely the Long Branch rifles for any year are the best. Barrels may be anything from 2 (quite common), 4, 5 (mostly) and 6 grooves. Same ammo. Truly GREAT rifles. Easy to put a scope onto, too, if you are careful. PRICES start around 300 or so, up to 450 or 500 for a really nice one. The SNIPER was the Number 4 Mark 1(T) and they sell in the $3600-$4000 range with scope, case and accessories.
ANY of them are MUCH too good.... and too much fun..... NOT to shoot.
Have fun!
(My fingers are tired now! I wonder why......)
.
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The SMLE is identified by the open rear sight partway down the barrel. Identifying information is found under the bolt handle. About 60% were made at Enfield, about 30% by BSA, about 5% by London Small Arms (LSA) and 2 or 3% each by Standard Small Arms (SSA) and National Rifle Factory (NRF). AUSTRALIA manufactured this rifle from 1912 (1912 is very rare) through to about 1956; they are marked LITHGOW. INDIA manufactured this rifle from 1913 through to at least 1968; they are marked ISHAPORE or GRI.
Under the Bolt Handle, you will find the Royal Signet, place of manufacture, date of manufacture and precise Model of the rifle. NRF and SSA rifles have only a weird-looking Crown; the factory mark is on the left side of the action, just to the left of the bolt body.
Prices seem to start about $300 and go up from there. For a good, solid, clean original rifle, expect to pay about $400 or more. Eats standard .303 ammo, 10-round mag, the fastest and toughest bolt rifle ever built.
As any rifle, the BORE is critical, much moreso than many other factors. Look for sharp, deep grooves and sharp lands. Rifling is 5 grooves, left-hand, 1 turn in 10 inches.
EARLY SMLE rifles were made between 1902 and 1907 and are VERY hard to find, especially in original condition. These include the Mark I, I*, I**, I***. There was no Mark 2 in .303; the Mark II was a .22". There ARE "Converted Mark IV" SMLE rifles, made up from old Boer War rifles, and they are super-scarce. They are only about 1 in 3000 o actual production.
There are more than 100 variants of the SMLE rifle so, whatever you pick, do get back to us. They ALL have a story to tell. Look for a tiny stamp on the Receiver Ring of a little arrow in a capital letter C: this denotes a Canadian-used rifle for sure.
AFTER the Great War, development continued on the Lee rifle. The Mark V was built in 1922 and 1924 only, super rare: rceiver sight, special handguard, extra barrel-band. The Mark VI had the muzzle exposed for about 2 inches (previous rifles were stocked up RIGHT to the muzzle), a checkered fore-end, a rear-sight mounted above the bolt and all were made at Enfield in very small numbers in the late 1920s through to 1931. In 1931 this was standardised as the NUMBER 4 RIFLE and was the standard for new rifles made during War Two. There were three factories in England nd they were made in the USA (Savage) and Canada (Long Branch) as well. Of the 5 plants, likely the Long Branch rifles for any year are the best. Barrels may be anything from 2 (quite common), 4, 5 (mostly) and 6 grooves. Same ammo. Truly GREAT rifles. Easy to put a scope onto, too, if you are careful. PRICES start around 300 or so, up to 450 or 500 for a really nice one. The SNIPER was the Number 4 Mark 1(T) and they sell in the $3600-$4000 range with scope, case and accessories.
ANY of them are MUCH too good.... and too much fun..... NOT to shoot.
Have fun!
(My fingers are tired now! I wonder why......)
.
.
The old Smellie (SMLE) will take almost any amount of abuse.
Put a live round of military Ball ammo into the rifle's muzzle, bullet first. If the CASING stands out anything more than an eighth of an inch (3mm) you have something that can be worked with. A very few, with extra-tight bores, will have the case protrude a quarter of an inch (6mm). Clean her up carefully, check for The Damned Crack and head for the range.
I have an old Aussie SMLE here which shot a 14-inch group at 100 yards when we started playing with it. It now will shoot just over half an inch if you can hold it.
They CAN shoot.
And they are a completely DIFFERENT ball of wax, an education in themselves.
And it pays off.
.
Put a live round of military Ball ammo into the rifle's muzzle, bullet first. If the CASING stands out anything more than an eighth of an inch (3mm) you have something that can be worked with. A very few, with extra-tight bores, will have the case protrude a quarter of an inch (6mm). Clean her up carefully, check for The Damned Crack and head for the range.
I have an old Aussie SMLE here which shot a 14-inch group at 100 yards when we started playing with it. It now will shoot just over half an inch if you can hold it.
They CAN shoot.
And they are a completely DIFFERENT ball of wax, an education in themselves.
And it pays off.
.
Be aware of Ishapore and other Indian variants of the SMLE.(sometimes seen is GRI with an Ishy screw)
Look for the Ishy screw on the left through the forend. These are less desirable than a Canadian or British rifle. It doesn't mean they are junk but you may feel the Brit or Can guns are more desirable given a choice.
Headspace should be checked if you can as they can be pretty loose if used a ton.
Look for 5 matching numbers including rear sight.
It might be worth paying the higher price for a really primo SMLE.
In the old days (prior to WWI) they kept about a million rifles' worth of wood at the factory, in piles, being turned continually. Wood was at least 7 years old and cured naturally before they made it into a rifle. Because of the huge need for rifles during the Great War they started kiln-drying wood and they got this to work, also. The rifles were fine as they were built. Just ask Fritz.
But they were built in a mild, damp climate...... and we have a relatively harsh climate, colder and drier. In OUR climate, the wood continued to lose fluid and to shrink. When it shrinks around the ACTION, stresses can be set up which are strong enough to crack the wood, starting right at the thinnest part of the forearm where the trigger mechanism goes down through the wood. This is The Damned Crack; have one let go in the middle of an 800-yard match and you will know why: your group goes all to hell suddenly and there is NO predicting where your next bullet will land. If it gets REALLY bad, you can get a cracked forestock at the front of the magazine well, too.
The Damned Crack is responsible for more bad shooting with SMLE rifles than half the bad barrels still in existence. It is an awful problem. It is also VERY easy to fix.
Solution is simple: take the rifle apart carefully (remove the forestock) and inspect. If The Damned Crack is present, degrease with something like brake-drum cleaner and repair with a good grade of 2-part epoxy, clamp lightly and let stand overnight, then treat the wood with linseed oil to restore some of the lost natural toughness. A day later you reassemble the rifle and go shooting. Problem solved.
The Damned Crack occurred so much (especially with English rifles) in Indian Service (with its extreme climate variations) that Ishapore Arsenal repaired their own rifles (and any English-made ones they could get their hands on) before they left the factory! The result is "The Dreaded Ishy Screw" which disfigures the esthetic appearance of these fine rifles.... but also prevents your group from going to hell in a handbasket in the middle of a group. I have a 1948 Ishapore rifle here which has had exactly 3 rounds through it. It has 8 factory repairs to the wood for things which MIGHT happen! The Indians knew the rifles well and didn't take any chances. India and Pakistan both are still using the old SMLE and both still make all parts except Bodies (receivers).
Hope this helps.
.
But they were built in a mild, damp climate...... and we have a relatively harsh climate, colder and drier. In OUR climate, the wood continued to lose fluid and to shrink. When it shrinks around the ACTION, stresses can be set up which are strong enough to crack the wood, starting right at the thinnest part of the forearm where the trigger mechanism goes down through the wood. This is The Damned Crack; have one let go in the middle of an 800-yard match and you will know why: your group goes all to hell suddenly and there is NO predicting where your next bullet will land. If it gets REALLY bad, you can get a cracked forestock at the front of the magazine well, too.
The Damned Crack is responsible for more bad shooting with SMLE rifles than half the bad barrels still in existence. It is an awful problem. It is also VERY easy to fix.
Solution is simple: take the rifle apart carefully (remove the forestock) and inspect. If The Damned Crack is present, degrease with something like brake-drum cleaner and repair with a good grade of 2-part epoxy, clamp lightly and let stand overnight, then treat the wood with linseed oil to restore some of the lost natural toughness. A day later you reassemble the rifle and go shooting. Problem solved.
The Damned Crack occurred so much (especially with English rifles) in Indian Service (with its extreme climate variations) that Ishapore Arsenal repaired their own rifles (and any English-made ones they could get their hands on) before they left the factory! The result is "The Dreaded Ishy Screw" which disfigures the esthetic appearance of these fine rifles.... but also prevents your group from going to hell in a handbasket in the middle of a group. I have a 1948 Ishapore rifle here which has had exactly 3 rounds through it. It has 8 factory repairs to the wood for things which MIGHT happen! The Indians knew the rifles well and didn't take any chances. India and Pakistan both are still using the old SMLE and both still make all parts except Bodies (receivers).
Hope this helps.
.
There was indeed a MkII in .303 (Converted Mark II) it was a conversion of the earlier Longlees to Mk1 SMLE configuration, the Converted Mark IV was a Longlee converted to MkIII specs. The No2 is the .22 trainer.
Simply a typo i believe..."The Mark V was built in 1922 and 1924 only"
should be 1922 to 1924, they were also made in 1923.
Thank you, 5th Batt, new one on me. I have seen and handled quite a few Mark V rifles but have never encountered a '23.
And yes, I did ignore some of the really old ones.
I have no idea how many variants there are on the Lee Rifle. Small Arms of the World used to list 12, then 21; a friend in Ottawa had 31 until I sent him 2 he didn't have. I have at least two that aren't in ANY book and both are the Real Thing. I believe that John Sukey has over 100 but we both are in awe of the Pattern Room. When I was at Enfield in 1976, I saw FOUR HUNDRED Lee rifles on their rack, all different!
I want it, I want it, I want it, Iwannitiwannitiannitiwannit..........! (Lying on floor, banging fists madly like a 3-year-old.)
Going off now for a good cry......
Have fun!
.
And yes, I did ignore some of the really old ones.
I have no idea how many variants there are on the Lee Rifle. Small Arms of the World used to list 12, then 21; a friend in Ottawa had 31 until I sent him 2 he didn't have. I have at least two that aren't in ANY book and both are the Real Thing. I believe that John Sukey has over 100 but we both are in awe of the Pattern Room. When I was at Enfield in 1976, I saw FOUR HUNDRED Lee rifles on their rack, all different!
I want it, I want it, I want it, Iwannitiwannitiannitiwannit..........! (Lying on floor, banging fists madly like a 3-year-old.)
Going off now for a good cry......
Have fun!
.
Hell when you get as old as most of us you would give your left nut for a good #2
