Need 700ML help please!

Bandits

Bandits

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I am new to both muzzle loading as well as this forum. I have experience with rifles and shotguns but I am generally lost when it comes to muzzleloaders.

I recently bought a Remington 700ML in stainless and a synthetic stock. I bought it used from gun shop back home. I looked over it and did some reading, then thought I might know enough to shoot it once or twice. It ended at twice.

I loaded it with two 50gr. pyrodex pellets and a 44cal saboted 303gr bullet.
I was also using 209 primers. Now I know these are only to be used with certain guns and set-ups. I used this as this all came as a package from the previous owner who had it on consignment.

When the gun went off, the propellant pushed the primer back into the void in the bolt and against the firing pin. And as a result, the explosive gases came back through the breach plug and ejected out the side of the action and partially into my face. I tried it once more with glasses and the same thing happened.

Can anyone please tell me what I did wrong and/or how to fix this problem?
 
your load is pretty mild .


It seems that wih the Remington 700 ML with the 3 way 209 unit screwed in the breech-plug, the problem you mention is encountered by other people.so you're porbably not doing anything wrong ( the only thing I can think of is not screwibg the 209 nit all the way in the plug)

http://www.chuckhawks.com/remington700MLS.htm

I've run about 50 209-fired rounds through mine . I was originally for caps only but I converted it to 209 ignition with an after market conversion kit - NOT the Remington product). this kit almost completely encloses the 209 primer. There's a certain amount of blackening around the chamber area, but never any gas to the extent you mention.

The conversion kit was made - I believe- by
Armurier Lavaltrie inc
111 St-Antoine Sud
Lavaltre Quebec Canada
J5T-1C1
450-586-1305

( I got mine through Cabelas before they stopped exporting gun parts) I would suggest contacting the quebec armorer see if they still make it or h if he has old stock
 
Thanks JohnC,

I found the manufacturers web page and apparently they still make and sell the conversion kit.

http://armurierlavaltrie.com/remkit.html

They even had a picture of it. Which got me to look at my rifle. Apparently I have the exact same nipple on the breach plug. The only thing I did notice is that the kit includes the firing pin and spring which both look similar if not the same as what I have. The only thing I haven't seen is the large steel tube in the picture on the web page. Is it possible that I already have the conversion kit installed?
 
If you have the conversion kit I used then I'm puzzled. the pictures on the web site are excellent that's exactly what I have.

Link below shows the standard Remington 209 nipple in the Brownells catalog. The side vent cutouts are what allows the gases to escape and cause burns. The Lavaltrie one completely encloses the primer. there may be differences between the Remington and Lavaltrie firing pins etc as well.

The steel tube looks like a bolt disassembly tool ( i have an identical one in pastic).

The Lavaltrie price is excellent - I paid around $40 10 years ago and it didn't have the disassembly tool or shipping included.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=20197/Product/Nipple___209

Chack all the components - the pin, spring and nipple are all intended to worjk together.
 
I am sure that what I have is the same conversion kit for the 209 primers. The one without the vent cuts, that is.

Maybe I am just used to centerfire rifles in the sense that I was expecting nothing to come out of the breach. See my brother has a falling block style muzzle loader and his doesn't spit anything out from the primer area. So I guess I should ask the question.

Is flash supposed to come out of the breach area on a 700ML? If so is it bad enough that you have to wear safety glasses all of the time?
 
the remington 700 ml's are notorious for blowback, even with the conversions they still produce more than most others, that was the major design flaw with their muzzleloader.
 
I finally got some pictures of the 209 conversion nipple I am using. It looks the same as the advertised one online, other than it is blued. Here are a couple of close ups.


nipple2.jpg



209nipple.jpg



So from what I understand is that I should expect some if not alot of blowback from the muzzleloader. And from what I have read I should not use a weather sheild as it will duct the blowback down the bolt and into my face. So my question would be, what can I do about it short of selling my gun? Switch the type of primer maybe?
 
I have the same rifle and set-up and don't seem to have this problem. Specifically with the blowback and definitely about the primer being blown back out of the nipple. By the way smokeeter, very nice set-up. That must be sweet to prime and reload. Anyway, a couple of things to check are:
1. The flash hole hasn't been enlarged on the new 209 nipple. That would cause the problem.
2. Are you using the plastic bolt shroud that came with the gun? It just presses onto the end of the bolt and has a small vent hole which can be set to vent slightly downwards (but still out the side) when the bolt is closed.

A couple of questions:
Do you find that the little wrap spring that holds the 209 primer has lots of "grab" on the primer? I usually need a small knife to remove spent or live primers so I am surprised to hear of your problem. Perhaps your nipple spring has broken where it is supposed to hold the primer.

The original kit supplied a new firing pin and spring. I assume that the length or amount of spring pressure might be different. Maybe check with the manufacturer regarding the size of the flash hole and why a new spring comes with the kit. They might also have some ideas about why you have the problem.

Are your bullets hard to load in a clean barrel?
The only other suggestion I have is to try a different bullet and sabot, perhaps a 45 cal Hornady sst with the easy load sabot just to see if anything changes.

The amount of blowback you describe almost sounds dangerous...
 
Still thinking about this. I made the same progression. Pyrodex RS and regular cap. Convert to large musket cap. Convert to pellets. Hangfires. Convert to 209 primers. Poor accuracy compared to original setup. Switch to loose 777FFF. Seems to be good now. Beware that loose 777 and 777pellets are not equivalent loads. In a Remington which was 120 grain max load (if memory serves) with pyrodex and likely shot with 90-100 grains you would have to back off considerably with loose 777. Switched to the bullets mentioned in my last post. Between the cleanliness of 777 and the easy load sabots life is better now. 777 pellets would be nice but they just don't seem to give that consistent ignition that gives accuracy; or maybe the two pellets is just not an accurate load with my rifle?? Loose powder gives a bit more flexibility in loads and with speedloaders is not all that different to reload than pellets in a speedloader. You only need to be consistent in seating pressure of the bullet compared to just seating the bullet on pellets without crushing them. (That last point is important too.)
 
That is a beautiful set up for a ML you have Somkeeter.

I bought the rifle used from the local gun shop, and it was on consignment. The plastic weather shroud didn't come with the package, but I don't believe that I should be using that with a 209 primer (atleast this is what I have read). As for the 209 nipple, I tried putting a primer in and see if the retainer spring held it tight. It is somewhat tight and was not difficult to remove. Mind you I have the nipple out of the rifle right now. The flash hole in the nipple doesn't show any signs of wear or expansion in size (atleast from what I can see).

As for the loading of the gun, I honestly don't know what is defined as hard to load. But if I had to venture a guess I would say yes. Mind you most of the 'locals' load their guns using trees! Not my style. As for the accuracy of the rifle. I can't complain, for the two rounds fired, they were touching at 50 yards and both in the bullseye. So I think the load is alright, although I need to take it out to a further range to confirm that it is a sufficient load.

I will see if I can maybe spring for another kit. One that I know is suposed to work and try it. Because I really have no idea if the guy who installed it knew what he was doing or just thought that the new firing pin and spring were just extra.
 
The firing pin likely was installed. It has the little "pin" in the center to fire the 209. The original firing pin just had a flat face to it and I am not sure that it could fire a 209. The springs looked similar and I wondered why a new one was supplied with the kit. I just assumed that the spring pressure was different. I would ask the manufacturer about that, they might shed some light on that. Perhaps more spring was needed for a 209 than for a cap. When I mentioned the flash hole size in the nipple I was referring to whether someone had drilled it out. That would allow more blowback. It looks OK in the picture but the manufacturer could probably give you that info for you to check it. As for the weather shroud, I have always used mine without problem and it likely helps reduce the effect of the blowback. The only other thought that I had on this issue was whether the bolt itself was reassembled correctly. This might affect the spring pressure?? Allow the 209 to blow back out of the nipple?? I am not sure on that. The instuctions for the gun or the kit should indicate how many turns to thread together the bolt when reassembling it. I think the spring is preloaded when you reassemble the bolt. This last is just a thought.
 
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