Need a bear gun...Marlin Lever?

[open-sights]

I thought I just read about a new lever Marlin came out with in 45/70 - all I remember is that it was a composite and was pretty to look at but I remember the write up was heavy on praise. Does anyone know about this? Maybe I will just go to Marlin's website.

 

[prosper]

20 rounds lasts a long time.

Yeah, like a half hour!

Depends whether you're planning on bringing it ot the range

 

[todbartell]

a guy really should practice with his hunting rifles
​

 

[crazy_davey]

a guy really should practice with his hunting rifles
​

I agree with Bartell. I have loaded about four hundread 45-70 rounds in the past month or so and have touched off about half of them. 53 grains of 3031 behind a 405 seems to be working great for both my Marlins.

Practice makes perfect . If you are worried about the cost, avoid buying a big bore, they aint cheap to shoot even if you reload.

 

[Camp Cook]

My powder of choice for the 45-70 is H322.

I just finished trimming and priming 260 more 45-70 brass this morning and will start putting the loads together later today.

I've been working up loads for my new 223 Rem 700P lately so didn't have the time to reload the 45-70's for a while.

I did shoot 40 45-70's last Thursday though.....

I have a target shaped like a black bear and was practicing bear attack shooting scenario's.

 

[Amphibious]

a guy really should practice with his hunting rifles
​

ah yes, the funny man again

I should have said, for hunting, 20 rounds will last a long time. burn up 100 rounds or so before you "know" your rifle.

I rarely take mine to the range. it's certainly not a plinker. but excluding one rabbit, I've never missed anything I've shot at with it

I still fail to see, for the factory ammo buyer, how a .450 guide gun will be any more expensive then a .350mag. a nice peepsighted guide gun is far less expensive then a scoped .350 mag. the ammo prices are comparable.

 

[Rembo]

Rembo,

That rifle of yours sure does look nice w/ that Leupy on it...she's flat out gorgeous!

Jeff.

thanks bud...you'd know this one

first time out the best 3 shot group I got was 2-1/8".... ..this was with 220 gr Speer flat noses that are actually made for the 356 Winn....hey, ...I had them already

"cccan" bedded and floated it for me so, now we'll see what she'll do with 250 Grand Slams.....these Ruger triggers are a bear for a Remington guy like me...but I got it to 4# with almost zero creep....that should help...

nice thing about the Ruger 350 Mag, the mag box has been stretched a bit...I can seat the 250 Grand Slam .04" off the lands for a 2.90" OAL and still fit the mag box...other Ruger short actions I've seen in the 308 sized cartridges had a 2.80-2.840 ish mag box....

 

[280_ACKLEY]

Rembo... that 350 Mag should be a remarkable improvement over your 35 Whelen in terms of terminal performance (grin).

Nice lookin' iron... but a Ruger.... are you feeling alright (grin)?

280_ACKLEY

 

[Rembo]

Rembo... that 350 Mag should be a remarkable improvement over your 35 Whelen in terms of terminal performance (grin).

Nice lookin' iron... but a Ruger.... are you feeling alright (grin)?

280_ACKLEY

I'm expecting it to shoot circles around the Whelen and kill stuff even more deader than the Whelen can , afterall...it IS a MAGNUM

 

[Boomer]

While its true that pistol bullets can be loaded in the .444 and Remington does still sell .444 ammo with hollowpoints designed for the 44 mag there is good hunting ammo/bullets available for the triple 4. I'd go with Hornaday's 265 grain flat points designed for the 444 which uses interlock bullets.

But what am I talking about I went with the 45-70 for my lever thumper of choice. I would still like a 444 some day and if I didn't hand load I'd probably have one...

With respect, if we examine any rifle cartridge bullet designed for use on deer, from the 100 gr. .243 on up, we find that these bullets often have sectional densities of about .240. The bullet you recommend for use on a much heavier black bear in the .444 Marlin - the 265 gr Hornady - has a sectional density of .205. What that means is that this bullet is going to have insufficient mass to drive through heavy bone and dense muscle, and we can anticipate the bullet will upset to a greater degree by being fired at a velocity far higher than it had been designed to, further limiting it's penetration. It should be kept in mind that it is often preferable to break a major bone when shooting a bear, rather than to take a lung shot - particularly when the range is close. A bullet with a sectional density of .270 or more would be preferable for use on bear, and in .429 caliber that would would require a bullet weighing 348 grs. A .429 caliber bullet which has a sectional density of .240 would weigh 310 grs. It would seem to me that a hard cast 310 gr. .429" bullet could be driven close to 2000 fps from a .444, and a 350 gr. bullet could come close to 1600. While I consider this somewhat inferior to the .45-70, it would certainly win the day, and would make the .444 truly big game capable.

 

[Salty]

Agreed Boomer, the 444 needs more than 265gr bullets to penetrate to its potential. I personally don't cosider black bear an animal that is overly hard to kill or that needs very deep bullet penetration so that's why I recomended the 265 Hornaday as a potential way to go.

But the 444 can muster up in the penetration deptartment fairly well I figure. I like some of the work Marshall Stanton has done with 325 grain cast for instance
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/19

 

[m1978]

444 all the way. accurate and with plenty of power. the 265's will do fine, ken waters years ago noted that it had a very tough jacket and was designed for heavy game. 300 gr xtps very accurate as well (3/4" groups in my rifle). never shot a 450 but a 400 gr 45-70 is dismal to shoot. have had both 444 and 45-70 and far and away recommend the 444 over the other. the 444 will handle any bear you encounter and a lot of the comments regarding 444 bullets is sheer bunk, it was designed to handle thin skinned game. unless you are going for cape buffalo i doubt you will notice a difference (and even then 335 grain hard cast bullets would work near as well as 400 gr bullets from a 45-70). if you choose bullets designed for heavier game, such as hornady's 265 you will do fine. several articles have noted the effectiveness of the 300 grain xtps as well. as for the fellows recommending the 350, i own one and think it is a dandy calibre as well. for factory ammo, the hornady 265s pack plenty of wallop.

 

[Camp Cook]

m1978 that was well said but I'll still take my Marlin GS 45-70. It gives me peace of mind when walking around in big bear country that other rifles I own don't. Mind you I legally walk around with a 7.5" Ruger SRH 454 Casull handgun with 360gr WLNGC's @ 1520fps in grizzly country.

I guess I'm a get the biggest/fastest bullet/velocity combo you can type of fellow.

I understand the praises of the 350 mag as well. I passed on buying one of them because I believe it is kind of a compromise cartridge. If I was going for a bolt gun that fills the criteria of what is being covered here it would be a 338Win mag, 358 Norma mag a 375 H&H mag or something in this area of performance with a 22" barrel. Short, powerful, stop anything that comes my way power.

 

[Boomer]

m1978 -

I am curious why you consider the 400 gr .45-70 dismal to shoot. With 52.0-53.0 grs of IMR 3031 pushing it, both the 400 gr Speer and the 405 gr Remington proved to me to be accurate and powerful, and I do not recall being unduly upset by the force of recoil. Dismal?? As it applies to big caliber rifles I would prefer a .458 boltgun to the Marlin, because after using both for the purpose, a bolt gun is what I'm comfortable with.

I keep telling Pounder his 602 is chambered for a pistol cartridge because a .458 is straight walled and less than 3" long - and he therefore needs to up grade to a .450 Rigby - so far he hasn't bit.

Yes, a 330 hard cast in the .444 would work as well as a heavy 400 gr .45-70 handload - which was my point - the .444 with pisol bullets doesn't cut it, and if you are going to carry a .444 against bears you need to handload appropriate bullets for it. I also believe this is true of the .45-70 and the .458 Winchester as I originally stated.

 

[manboy]

when you shoot a bear in the head with a 265gr interlock from a Marlin.444 he simply dies. those of you worrying about sectional density and blah blah have obviously never smashed anything with a .444, it is a very capable gun / calibre. yes, the pistol bullet is not designed for this, but no hollowpoint is. 50 grains of 4895 pushing that 265 is alot like shooting something with a dumptruck.

don't knock it till you try it!!

 

[Camp Cook]

I don't think anyone is knocking the 444 at all. I for instance totally agree with your comments. I just feel that there are better choices which is why I went with the 45-70.....

Several years ago I watched a buddy of mine drop a black bear at 130 yards with a 444. I don't remember the load he was using but it would have been a factory load. He actually hit the bear in the eye without even touching the eye lids. It dropped on the spot.....

No question about it the 444 Marlin will do the job....

 

[manboy]

450, 45-70, and .444 will all get the job done for sure. handloader's will get maximum benefit out of all 3 calibres (and everything else i guess ), whereas those who don't will usually get to pick the one type that is on the shelf, and will usually pay top dollar for it.

 

[mdbuckle]

You guys have great opinions and information, keep it comming! Ok then, on to my next question. How difficult is it to get into handloading? What would I need to get started?

 

[Boomer]

I think these comments miss the point. A fellow here last year killed a moose with a single shot to the head from a .22-250 firing a 55 gr PSP Remington bulk bullet, down loaded to .223 velocities - I know cause I loaded the ammo. That does not make the .223 or the .22-250 a moose gun any more than it makes the 265 gr Hornady a bear bullet - or the factory .444 any where near ideal as a bear killer. Why - because most of the time we don't take head shots, or fluke off CNS shots - we take body shots. Head shots happen from time to time, but when you are hunting in heavy cover - which is normal when packing a Marlin lever gun - you don't know what shot from what angle you are going to get and very often it's a going away snap shot. Sometimes things happen fast and close - and this again does not allow for target shooting at a head that is swinging from side to side. When I hunted blackies down south, I only killed one at anything like 100 yards, most were less than 100 feet - sometimes alot less.

You probably get 12" of penetration from a 265 gr. Hornady when it's fired from a .444 rifle, and under most conditions that will be enough - certainly it would be on a broadside lung shot. As a pal of mine used to say..."it won't do em any good!" But when I shoot a bear - from any angle, I want a big hole and I want an exit wound. In the case of the .444 I believe this means using very strong bullets which weigh in excess of 300 grs.

 

[Boomer]

You guys have great opinions and information, keep it comming! Ok then, on to my next question. How difficult is it to get into handloading? What would I need to get started?

The first step is to buy some reloading manuals. If the big bore Marlins are your cup of tea I would suggest Lyman's cast bullet manual, the Speer Manual, and Ken Waters Pet Loads although dated gives data for bullets up to 310 grs in the .444.

Lots of guys will tell you to start with Lee Equipment, but you know there's a reason that most guys switch to RCBS after they have reloaded for while. An RCBS starter kit with everything you need to reload, including the Speer manual will cost you $320.00.

You can buy bulk brass from both Wholesale Sports and Russels in Alberta. SIR surcharges you to death and Wholesale Sports in Winnipeg I can't reccomend because they refused to ship me anything they couldn't just drop in the mail - so now I get everthing from out west. There are probably some good outlets for you in Ontario.

As a guide line using .45-70 components

50 brass - $30.00
50 Speer 400 gr .458 bullets - $25.00
1000 Winchester Large Rifle Magnum Primers $25.00
1 pound of IMR 3031 (enough for 134 rounds) $27.00