Need a New Scope...

Joe549

Joe549

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So I took my Savage .270 out today to do some ammo comparison, and what do I find, my scope poi has dropped 6 or 8 inches again. I was using the same ammo from the same box, Federal Premium 150 grain, that I did when I sighted it in in October for deer season. I am convinced now that I need a new scope..

What is in the market (new or used) that is reliable, decent quality, standard v-plex or mil-dot reticle is all I need, target turrets would be a bonus but not necessary and in a 3-9x40 or 2.5-10x40/50 that is in the range of $300-500?
 
Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 z-plex reticle. I have them on promo for $479 down from $499...excellent value in a Zeiss product.

Minox is also a consideration: 3-9x40 with plex for $370 or a 3-9x50 with plex for $479.
 
Joe549 said:
I currently have the Bushnell Banner Dusk & Dawn 3-9x40 on it. The rifle is strictly a hunting rifle.
Click to expand...

I couldn`t pass without saying something here. I have a 22-250 and just recently bought a Bushnell Banner 6x24x40. Had it boresighted and tried to sight it in....key word "tried". I got the shots to center, but 4.5" low. The turret would not move the cross hairs. Had buddy put his borescope on it, and noticed that the cross hairs quit moving, before the turret was maxed out. Irregardless, got my money back. Just thought I`d mention this since I owned one for not quite 24hrs.
 
Some good learning folks on installing a scope. If you have to max out your adjustments there is a more sinister issue going on. Windage bases and base shims will correct the issue and appears to be a normal practice where a properly centered scope is not adjusting enough to sight in. Try a read on Korth Group or Leupold site for more info.

Most scopes today have a lot of adjustment by design to over compensate for mass production bases, receivers, etc. So it is very likely a questionable scope was fine to begin with. On two savages I have had to shim 10 to 15 thou under the rear base to provide for proper vertical alignment using weaver bases. Better to use Leupold style windage bases in those cases. So don't give up and do the research. Or have a pro install the scope.

Now, in addition, it is not uncommon to see POI change throughout the season and over time. A good practice to get into is shoot a bit more even in hunting season. It has raised my eyebrow a few times. Temperature change, barometric change, elevation change has a lot to do with it. I had seen 6" changes from an October setting to one in December. The main thing is will the scope hold zero once set. If you have hits flying to and fro it may be you or the scopes internals.

Food for thought. Hope this helps. Elky...
 
darcy32171 said:
I couldn`t pass without saying something here. I have a 22-250 and just recently bought a Bushnell Banner 6x24x40. Had it boresighted and tried to sight it in....key word "tried". I got the shots to center, but 4.5" low. The turret would not move the cross hairs. Had buddy put his borescope on it, and noticed that the cross hairs quit moving, before the turret was maxed out. Irregardless, got my money back. Just thought I`d mention this since I owned one for not quite 24hrs.
Click to expand...

I've actually got 3 of the Banner 6-24. One on the .22WMR, .17HMR and .223. All Savages. I was quite pleased with my first one on the .22WMR and I decided to get a couple more after I found a dealer here that had them on sale. So far they have not given me any trouble on any of those rifles and hold zero without an issue....

elkhuntr said:
Some good learning folks on installing a scope. If you have to max out your adjustments there is a more sinister issue going on. Windage bases and base shims will correct the issue and appears to be a normal practice where a properly centered scope is not adjusting enough to sight in. Try a read on Korth Group or Leupold site for more info.

Most scopes today have a lot of adjustment by design to over compensate for mass production bases, receivers, etc. So it is very likely a questionable scope was fine to begin with. On two savages I have had to shim 10 to 15 thou under the rear base to provide for proper vertical alignment using weaver bases. Better to use Leupold style windage bases in those cases. So don't give up and do the research. Or have a pro install the scope.

Now, in addition, it is not uncommon to see POI change throughout the season and over time. A good practice to get into is shoot a bit more even in hunting season. It has raised my eyebrow a few times. Temperature change, barometric change, elevation change has a lot to do with it. I had seen 6" changes from an October setting to one in December. The main thing is will the scope hold zero once set. If you have hits flying to and fro it may be you or the scopes internals.

Food for thought. Hope this helps. Elky...
Click to expand...

I knew that poi could/would change over time. However, this has happened to me 3 times now and all within a short period of time, ie a few months. In October when I sighted in I used Federal Premium 150 grain. I had it shooting an under 1 inch group at 100 yards dead center on the target. When I went out this time, using the same ammo from the same box, I was hitting 6 inches low. I can't see 10° effecting elevation that much in a 100 yard shot...

Now, the only difference with the rifle between now and then is; the gun was clean. Last sight in in the fall I left the barrel fouled, about 20 rounds down the barrel. This time it was clean. I did shoot 4 fouling shots with Remington Core Loks prior to switching to the Federal, they didn't even register on the target. Could the clean barrel have contributed that much of a difference? There were no scope adjustments made between then and now.
 
I assume you have eliminated these variables. Have you confirmed that the bases and rings have not loosened. Use blue lock tite. Check. Has your action screws loosened. Check. Does the barrel touch the stock in any way or does it have say a 1/8" gap everywhere. Check. Plastic stocks are notoriously flexible, and more so when shooting off a bipod. Twisting and barrel touching are a real issue. Check. Are you shooting the same power setting on your scope when you sighted in. Check.

Therefore, to ensure your scope internals are working correctly. Do a box text ie , Raise up 6", shoot. left 3", shoot, down 12", shoot. Right 3" shoot, up 6" shoot. You should be at your oringinal POI, if not your scope is not tracking 100%.

I also assume you understand that factory ammo is not tuned to your barrel. It may be acceptable for hunting to 200m with your ammo. However, to really "settle down" your barrel, a well tuned hand load will vary less. Changes in makes will and does make a big difference. Any change in environmental contitions can affect POI through Barrel Harmonics. Powder is a large variable. H series powder appears to be more stable than IMR series.

Every barrel is different. A 10 degree difference say with IMR seems small, but can send you way out if you are already outside of the optimum barel node. I have watched my load testing move off a 8.5x11 page at 100m. So Barrel harmonics is what I believe you are seeing in action.

If you are not a handloader you must accept what comes your way. That would be my best guess on the changes you are seeing. I hope this gets you closer Joe.
 
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Dante's sports in QC has Bushnell scopes on sale, i.e. Bushnell elite 4200 3-9 x40 for $259.77, Bushnell elite 3200 4-12 x 40 with BC flip-up caps for $247.77. Yes they ship all over Canada.
 
elkhuntr said:
I assume you have eliminated these variables. Have you confirmed that the bases and rings have not loosened. Use blue lock tite. Check. All tight. Has your action screws loosened. Check. Does the barrel touch the stock in any way or does it have say a 1/8" gap everywhere. Check. I have the Accustock, there is no contact between the barrel and the stock. The stock is very rigid also. Plastic stocks are notoriously flexible, and more so when shooting off a bipod. Twisting and barrel touching are a real issue. Check. Are you shooting the same power setting on your scope when you sighted in. Check. Same power, 9x.

Therefore, to ensure your scope internals are working correctly. Do a box text ie , Raise up 6", shoot. left 3", shoot, down 12", shoot. Right 3" shoot, up 6" shoot. You should be at your oringinal POI, if not your scope is not tracking 100%.

Never heard of this test before... Think I will give it a shot.

I also assume you understand that factory ammo is not tuned to your barrel. It may be acceptable for hunting to 200m with your ammo. However, to really "settle down" your barrel, a well tuned hand load will vary less. Changes in makes will and does make a big difference. Any change in environmental contitions can affect POI through Barrel Harmonics. Powder is a large variable. H series powder appears to be more stable than IMR series.

Every barrel is different. A 10 degree difference say with IMR seems small, but can send you way out if you are already outside of the optimum barel node. I have watched my load testing move off a 8.5x11 page at 100m. So Barrel harmonics is what I believe you are seeing in action.

I realize that different ammo is going to vary in results, but the same ammo from the same box that was used during the last sight-in??

If you are not a handloader you must accept what comes your way. That would be my best guess on the changes you are seeing. I hope this gets you closer Joe.
Click to expand...

Definately going to try that box test and see how that works out. I realize that factory ammo will not perform to the same levels as handloads, however I am not setup for handloading at this time, and for the area that I currently hunt, factory loads are more than sufficient. There are hardly any spots where I would be taking shots beyond 100 yards. For the most part, shooting is done within 60 yards. I'm not expecting to be able to consistently shoot cloverleafs all day with factory loads, but I do want to be sure that my scope is not going to crap out on me at the critical moment... If this scope does what it 'should' in the above mentioned test, I will hold onto it and maybe toss it onto another gun at some point, if not, it's going in the trash.

Now, I saw a Vortex Crossfire 2.5-10x50 listed on a local dealers site.. How well will this scope hold up sitting on top of a Savage 111 .270?
 
I guess that is where they coined the phrase "every gun shoots different". When talking about the accuracy of reloads, I have been reloading myself for my Savage Axis 22-250. 55gr hornady v-max bullets and 34.5 and 35grains of IMR 4895. The 34.5 were the tighter group, but I do have to say: The factory (bulk pack) of Winchester 45gr bullets were the best. So to hear someone say that reloads tailered to your gun will be more consistant and accurate....I find it hard to believe to make a statement for all guns in general. Just my opinion,Darcy
 
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