Need enlightenment

DGY

DGY

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Good evening all, I got a new to me 9.3x62 rifle and I’m trying to get a load going using 286gn Hornady interlock cause it is cheaper to shoot than my partitions of Aframes!!
So I tried two different powders, ram shot big game and h4350, on the first outing I got excited with the results with h4350, I don’t wanna push that bullet too hard cause of terminal performance are going down the drain above the 2400ish fps mark so I want it to be closer to 2360-2380 mark.
So anyway, if you look at the first picture, that is the target with the great node between shot 3-4-5. It’s even at the right elevation and windage lol. IMG_2888.jpeg
Then I thought I would go between load 3 and 4(load 5 being above the 2400fps mark)
So I went and loaded 3 sets of 3 64.3-64.6-64.9 and went to the range…
IMG_2941.jpegIMG_2940.jpegIMG_2939.jpeg
The grouping was far from expected, other that the first and last group where I have 2 rounds basically in the same hole so I think there could be(there is for sure) shooter error since I’m using a 1.5-6 scope and not a 5-25 one lol!
There was a difference in temperature and barometric pressure between the two days, that might explains the different point of impact but the velocities were really close!
So from what you see tell me what it tells you 😜
 
pic 1 says to me you need more than one fouler
other pics have too much vertical spread to be considered imo
overall its a tiny start toward data collection
 
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Sorry but IMHO one good group of 3 does not make an accuracy node. It could be just a random event. Also, I would let the rifle and load tell what the best velocity is…via accuracy.

I’m not much help with this specifics caliber, but for a typical “low V/heavy bullet” load like this, I usually start with a larger ladder test.

I usually start with 10-15 rounds of varying charge weights (0.4 to 0.5 grains variation for a case this large). You will need a few extra rounds in the middle charge weigh for zeroing and fouling, Plus, you’ll need a second target for zeroing and fouling shots. (Note: I’m not sure if one is available, but a higher magnification scope, 9x plus, might be helpful for the ladder test.)

Shoot the ladder as consistently as possible at ~200 yds….all on the same target. The shots should normally print low - and end high on the target paper, often angling right and occasionally left as you increase charge weight. Mark your shot order and hit location on a spare piece of paper or a spare target paper at the bench. With 10-15 bullets holes in the paper, tracking shot order on the bench avoids a lot of confusion.

Look for clusters of bullets (3-4) with similar points of impact and consecutive charge weights. You can do the test at 100yds but I find that sometimes the clusters (nodes) don’t show themselves as clearly. Accuracy nodes show more clearly at extended ranges, I find.

With a good test, often there are two accuracy nodes…one at lower velocity and often one in the high velocity range. I focus in on the cluster in the velocity range that I am most interested in.

I typically load 10 rounds in the middle charge weight of the accuracy node . I then shoot “3 groups of three” at 100yds to confirm accuracy. With one extra shot to make up for a possible outlier (aka mistake).

If there are no POI/charge wt. clusters in my ladder test (and I felt my shots were consistent), I would probably start over using different components (bullets or powder).

If my “3 groups of three” accuracy test doesn’t show promise, I might start over with new components or tweek the charge weight at that node or try the other node (if it exists).

This process often gets me good results…but not always. lol.

Good luck
 
Last edited:
DGY said:
Good evening all, I got a new to me 9.3x62 rifle and I’m trying to get a load going using 286gn Hornady interlock cause it is cheaper to shoot than my partitions of Aframes!!
So I tried two different powders, ram shot big game and h4350, on the first outing I got excited with the results with h4350, I don’t wanna push that bullet too hard cause of terminal performance are going down the drain above the 2400ish fps mark so I want it to be closer to 2360-2380 mark.
So anyway, if you look at the first picture, that is the target with the great node between shot 3-4-5. It’s even at the right elevation and windage lol.
Then I thought I would go between load 3 and 4(load 5 being above the 2400fps mark)
So I went and loaded 3 sets of 3 64.3-64.6-64.9 and went to the range…

The grouping was far from expected, other that the first and last group where I have 2 rounds basically in the same hole so I think there could be(there is for sure) shooter error since I’m using a 1.5-6 scope and not a 5-25 one lol!
There was a difference in temperature and barometric pressure between the two days, that might explains the different point of impact but the velocities were really close!
So from what you see tell me what it tells you 😜
Click to expand...

If Hornady tells you that this bullet is designed for under 2400 fps, you need to realize a Muzzle Velocity (MV) of 2400 fps will drop to well under 2400 fps at 100 yds and further, when its "terminal performance" takes place.

Stay the course in developing an accurate load.
 
When I'm working up a load, I listen to what QL & GRT suggest & make up at least 20-25 rounds per load. Shoot those rounds over different days to see if any really good, or, for that matter, really bad, group was simply operator error / environmental flukes. If it is a heavy[ier] barrel, shoot 5 shot groups, if a light sporter barrel, then 3 shot groups.

Measure those groups, to whatever decimal point you believe is important & plug them into an Excel spreadsheet. Let the numbers tell you which is better. You should find at least 2 different powder loads that are equally good.

Not to be pedantic, but ALL of your components, other than the ONLY one you are testing, should be the same [primer brand & lot, bullet brand, type & lot, powder lot, brass brand, lot & times fired].

On the loads shown in your photos above, are you cleaning between the groups? As has been mentioned, if you are then you need more fouling shots before shooting for group [important for a hunting load so that you have confidence as to where your first shot will impact]. If not, was it windy [from 6 or 12 o'clock, not 3 or 9 or any of the other hours, based on vertical stringing POI] the day the loads were shot?

If not, then I'd look for something else. Possibly the powder charge; go up or go down, one or the other. Perhaps your stock fore-end is flexing.

Before you do that, however, what is your technique? Are you shooting the rifle off sandbags? If so, are you placing your hand on the bag & the rifle on your hand? This will dampen the moving away from the hard spot which can occur if you rest the rifle on a hard rest. Presume your breathing, trigger control & rifle hold into your shoulder are not issues.

Lastly, have you chronographed your load? If there are velocity variations, you have the answer to your question "Why am I getting vertical stringing?"

Sorry for the long-winded diatribe.ecba05e89d7a0f4c06b3faa71522ebe5.jpg
 
Last edited:
jamesharrison said:
When I'm working up a load, I listen to what QL & GRT suggest & make up at least 20-25 rounds per load. Shoot those rounds over different days to see if any really good, or, for that matter, really bad, group was simply operator error / environmental flukes. If it is a heavy[ier] barrel, shoot 5 shot groups, if a light sporter barrel, then 3 shot groups.

Measure those groups, to whatever decimal point you believe is important & plug them into an Excel spreadsheet. Let the numbers tell you which is better. You should find at least 2 different powder loads that are equally good.

Not to be pedantic, but ALL of your components, other than the ONLY one you are testing, should be the same [primer brand & lot, bullet brand, type & lot, powder lot, brass brand, lot & times fired].

On the loads shown in your photos above, are you cleaning between the groups? As has been mentioned, if you are then you need more fouling shots before shooting for group [important for a hunting load so that you have confidence as to where your first shot will impact]. If not, was it windy [from 6 or 12 o'clock, not 3 or 9 or any of the other hours, based on vertical stringing POI] the day the loads were shot?

If not, then I'd look for something else. Possibly the powder charge; go up or go down, one or the other. Perhaps your stock fore-end is flexing.

Before you do that, however, what is your technique? Are you shooting the rifle off sandbags? If so, are you placing your hand on the bag & the rifle on your hand? This will dampen the moving away from the hard spot which can occur if you rest the rifle on a hard rest. Presume your breathing, trigger control & rifle hold into your shoulder are not issues.

Lastly, have you chronographed your load? If there are velocity variations, you have the answer to your question "Why am I getting vertical stringing?"

Sorry for the long-winded diatribe.View attachment 985758
Click to expand...
I went back today, all the same primers brass powder bullet sitting depth rifle scope(1.5-6) target bench rests clothing etc etc etc. My technique is usually ok to good(always place to improvement), no wind to worry about, temps really similar if not identical, rifle not cleaned between sessions!
Todays 3 shot group was way better and I shot the same load through my other 9.3x62 with 20” barrel and other than point of impact the group was really similar! I’m pretty happy with that considering the low power scope and the human errors!
IMG_2947.jpeg
 
We've all experienced a standout sweet 3 shot group during load development, went home and made up a bunch more, only to have them shoot way worse the next range trip

The highs and lows of small sample size testing. A 3 shot group can tell you how bad a load can be, but never how good it will be
 
I see no point in shooting 5 shot groups with a game rifle. You will NEVER get more than 3 shots at game, unless you are doing a cull. There is also the matter of barrel heating enlarging your group.

Alternatively, for a varmint rifle, it makes sense to shoot 10 shot groups if your rifle will see heavy use in a prairie dog filed.
 
jamesharrison said:
I see no point in shooting 5 shot groups with a game rifle. You will NEVER get more than 3 shots at game, unless you are doing a cull. There is also the matter of barrel heating enlarging your group.

Alternatively, for a varmint rifle, it makes sense to shoot 10 shot groups if your rifle will see heavy use in a prairie dog filed.
Click to expand...
3 shots are statistically irrelevant, and arguably not even a group. You need more data points to have useful data. You can have the three touching shots of a shotgun like pattern and walk away thinking you're set. The next three will be unpredictable, and so on. If barrel temp is a concern, allow your bore to cool before firing each round. You're testing the consistency and capabilities of the ammunition in that rifle, the number of rounds fired in your chosen application has little to do with your testing process unless barrel temp is a factor to consider.

 
yeah yeah I get the five and ten shot group or more actually but in reality I’m not made of money and after those 3 shots and the 3 from my other rifle( same size none group lol) I shot the bison in the vital at 280 some yards!
I’m never gonna sit a the bench and go today I will shoot 10 5 shots groups, there is no way, not with that rifle and not with most of my rifles! I’m a hunter, not a paper or steel shooter! Last year moose I shot at 280m(ranged with two different range finder after the shot) that moose was on a full run getting away from us I didn’t think twice and put a bullet right at the right place! You can do as many 5 shots groups as you want, you can chase tiny little groups but what counts for me is meat in the freezer! IMG_1229.jpeg
 
DiMP said:
Another good video on the subject

Click to expand...
That is all good but we are not talking the same things here, all components are match components shout out of a match rifle barrel… good for you if that is what you wanna use for hunting but I don’t see the point of all that for hunting inside 300m!
Too each there own!
 
DGY said:
I’m never gonna sit a the bench and go today I will shoot 10 5 shots groups, there is no way, not with that rifle and not with most of my rifles! I’m a hunter, not a paper or steel shooter! Last year moose I shot at 280m(ranged with two different range finder after the shot) that moose was on a full run getting away from us I didn’t think twice and put a bullet right at the right place! You can do as many 5 shots groups as you want, you can chase tiny little groups but what counts for me is meat in the freezer!
Click to expand...
Should have led-off with this.
Hunting rounds are easy, many run with a box of 20 for several seasons lol
Lee Classic kit can make loads at the cabin or on the tailgate with hand tools and a powder dipper, its that easy
Your first pic shows 3 shots before the group settled in nice, then any would be hunting accuracy
nice young moose there, but they can still be chewy
 
boxhitch said:
Should have led-off with this.
Hunting rounds are easy, many run with a box of 20 for several seasons lol
Lee Classic kit can make loads at the cabin or on the tailgate with hand tools and a powder dipper, its that easy
Your first pic shows 3 shots before the group settled in nice, then any would be hunting accuracy
nice young moose there, but they can still be chewy
Click to expand...
I should have.
As for the moose, I’ve been lucky meat wise, I didn’t get one yet that was tough or at least nothing like wood bison are!
 
You don't have to do larger sample testing, that's your choice, I don't think anybody is trying to force you to fire more rounds here.

When you're doing load development, then asking on CGN about why the *node* disappeared, now you know why
 
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