Need help: 9mm, Glock and pierced primers

Proutfoo

Proutfoo

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I put together what I thought to be a good working receipe, consisting of the following;

- 4.7gn vv-N340
- 115gn plated RN projectile
- Winchester WSP primers
- 1.147 OAL
- crimped using Lee FCD.

My load data shows this to be a starting load for 9x19.

Shot about 10, all is well, grouping seems good so I loaded up a hundred or so. My supply of primers was quite low as Higgensons only had a couple hundred when I swung by so I picked up 1000 Federal Small Pistol locally.

I loaded up a few hundred, and picked 10 out of two boxes to try with these Federal primers, and out of 20, 4 of which had soot in the primer strike, two of which showed visible pinholes :(

So of course I pull apart some more rounds figuring I mis-weighed somehow, and no, 4.7-4.8gn on all the rounds I took apart.

What I note is this (and I will try and take pics later on).

- Factory ammo shows much more primer flow as a neat square recessed around the striker, whereas my Winchester as well as Federal seem much flatter, and the striker hit deeper :confused:

- the striker on the glock that I was using seems uneven, as it has seen a fair amount of use. It is slightly pitted in fact near the tip.

- recoil wasn't the slightest bit different, or visibly violent

So I'm at a loss. Anyone care to educate me in the mechanics of this powder? Too fast/slow? Striker issue? Overpressured? All my load data suggests to me this would be a load on the lower-end, so I can't figure out why the primers would look so flat and even go as far as being pierced. Granted the Internet is littered with "Federal Primers are soft" etc etc, and I have no proof that going through the Winchester primers I used wouldn't show the same thing.

I like a good crimp, I can't imagine that a stout crimp could cause this?
 
Are pierced primers typically associated with over-pressure loads???

These seem to be two different issues to me. Did you strip your gun to have a look at the firing pin? It's possible something went awry there.
 
I think you are loading a little hot for your components and OAL, you should have started with 4.4gr.
Too good of a crimp will hold bullet in case stronger and longer and would require higher pressure to move bullet out of the case. Given you use plated bullets, it's not a very good idea to apply 'good' crimp as you may cut thru copper plating too.
Fed primers are the softest, followed by Win primers. Check your gun out first, then try to find chrono and run your reloads thru it to see velocity.
 
I recovered a number of projectiles and the crimp is visible; none of the projectiles were cut to the lead by either the crimp or the rifling. I guess I have a lot of pulling to do :(
 
Are you positive the pin is puncturing the primer and not the primer
being blow. Into the firing pin orfice in the breach face?
 
At this point I am not sure. Going to reduce the load and see what happens. I will probably end up disposing of these since pulling them with a kinetic puller is quite tedious. Live and learn I guess.
 
I'm not a Glock expert at all, but dont the firing pins strike hard? On a soft federal primer couldnt it pierce the primer? Just a thought as i havent seen this even with my 9mm major loads.
 
I've tried to penetrate spent primers, dryfiring over and over into it, all it did is pound the dimple deeper and deeper. I've done it with a number of rifles
and pistols. I never managed to puncture one. Not saying it doesn't happen.
What I'm wondering is this, weak firing pin strikes are also known to cause the primers to blow a hole out, into the firing pin hole of the breach. Glock specificaly
says not to allow any oil into the firing pin/striker channel because it slows and weakens the strike.
I proved this to myself in my xcr, with disbelief from
a number of people on this forum. I used too heavy of a lube on the hammer pivot, this slowed the hammer enough that it did not have the kinetic energy to support the primer during ignition of the gun powder. It would strike hard enough to ignite, then the pressure in the case would push back against the primer, punching it right back into the bolt face, leaving perfectly punched out discs in the reciever.
I experimented back and fourth between heavy oil and light film of light oil a number of times while in the field as it only takes a minute to pull the entire trigger/hammer assembly out and re-install. I like to experiment, I like to be sure, I like to know how, I like to know why. You don't have to beleive me but it wouldn't hurt to pull that slide apart, make sure the entire firing pin/striker and channel are clean and completely
oil free, then try shooting. If the problem continues at least you know the gun is clean.
 
Can't comment on load, but federal primers are quite soft(easily pierced), used to good effect with PPC revolvers with light hammer spring. A friend was piercing primers with .40 glock. Loads were heavy and breech face+firing pin were gas cut(making the fp hole larger and firing pin SHARPER. Could your pistol have been damaged by a previous owner?
 
glycerin said:
Can't comment on load, but federal primers are quite soft(easily pierced), used to good effect with PPC revolvers with light hammer spring. A friend was piercing primers with .40 glock. Loads were heavy and breech face+firing pin were gas cut(making the fp hole larger and firing pin SHARPER. Could your pistol have been damaged by a previous owner?
Click to expand...

no, previous owner was fine with it. I checked for gas cutting and there is fouling but there is no visible erosion on either the striker, the breech or the slide. Out of the 4 that were blackened only 2 showed a tiny pinhole, the other two could have been fouled since the striker area was clearly showered in crap. I didn't shoot a whole bunch so I'm pretty sure damage is limited.

I'm thinking I am just going to cut my losses and dispose of this batch. Its a few hundred but in the larger scope of things, 150$ mistake vs toasting my pistol or blowing up my hand just doesn't make sense. Or pull the projectiles with a collet, and re-load them with a different charge and new projectiles since these plated ones will likely not survive the pulling.

My instincts were tingling when I was getting these primers as they were all I could find locally, as I had read umpteen times that they were soft(er).

My next primer purchase will be CCI no doubt :redface:
 
Pierced primers just that, pierced from the outside - in, are usually caused by sharp tips, too soft primer, too strong of a strike or a combination. Ruptured primers are the opposite, combustion pressures pushing outward through the path of least resistance. They are caused by weak strikes, strikes
hard enough to ignite the primer yet not strong enough to support the primer during combustion. Well I shouldn't say weak strikes but just not strong enough for that load, however at any reasonable to even quite hot, that pin should be supporting the primer.

Some people here don't believe that the primer relies on support from the pin/hammer/ or striker but research will show you evidence and simple math can confirm
as we all know there are 3 ways to reach a certain
energy level - light objects going fast, heavier ones going slower and any weight with a indefinate push of that specific force.
Just a quick estimation as an example is a 35grain striker moving twards
the primer ar 500 feet per second has the energy of 19.4 pounds, estimating the firing pin is .02" diameter, it's area is .000314sq in. Therefore that firing pin is actually exerting 61 860psi against the primer... Just guessing at
actual weights and velocities here but using actual
formulas. If you were to slow the striker
to 400 ftps you now only have 39 596psi... Quite a drastic drop in ability to support te primer.. It wouldn't take much drag to
slow the striker that much.
 
Pull the slide apart, clean the striker and
channel, mabey even replace the spring, matinence
and a $5 spring migh be the whole problem. Glock
specifically says No Lube in or on the striker, if the last
owner put a couple drops in there it
could be the whole reason for the primer issue. Take 5minutes that's
free and clean the gun, it
could save you money and agrivation.... Worst case it doesn't cure it, but your gun is clean and reliable.
 
any point in trying to use these primers with a lighter load? I'm going to pull the projectiles with a collet in a press (and chuck them since they will likely be deformed...) and dump the powder, however is there any hope of not puncturing primers with a lighter load?

getting to the cleaning once I have time to take out the striker.
 
I don't shoot a Glock, but I have picked up thousands of cases fired in Glocks. The firing pin strike is always smeared and I suspect that a softer primer could easily be pierced. I suspect it is a Glock trait, and not an ammo problem. Switch primers and save these ones for some other pistol that is less demanding.
 
Dude I give up on you, are you seriously considering wasting all that time and money instead of just cleaning your striker? It likely has nothing to do with the primers, pull a bullet, dump the powder then fire it, if the pin peirced it, you are right, I am wrong, if it does not... Clean the striker and channel. Trust me I'm no dummy, I might have horrible grammer, punctuation and spelling but when it comes to things of mechanical, physics and math I'm quite a knowledgable nerd. Just trying to help...but I guess some people ask for it then ignore it.
 
By the way I own a glock 20, 10mm. I reload all my own exept 8 boxes of store bought, I load them hot as a fart sandwich. Just for fun this weekend I'll oil my firing pin that glock instructs us not to do (for some mysterious reason) just for you.

Did you know hunters in cold climates remove all traces of oil from their bolt action firing pins? You know why... He oils thicken, causing drag on the pin which in turn causes weak strikes, causing miss fires and........ Ruptured primers.... Weird, cold weather lowers pressures yet the primers are rupturing... Hunter removes oil, all is fine again.... Must be coincidence I suppose. Call an Alaskan hunting guide and ask what preperation you should to to your rifle.... Are the physics and pricipals of primer strike, powder combustion, and case pressures different between rifles and pistols? As far as I know the primer doesn't care what hits it.
 
I'm with fuzzynuts54 on this one.

TAKE THE GUN APART AND CLEAN IT THOROUGHLY !!:eek:

Use a Q-tip dipped in Hoppes #9 and go through the firing pin channel and the extractor channel and make sure they are clean. If you have access to a compressor, blow it all out. You will find traces of brass debris in the firing pin channel.:rolleyes:. That is normal.

Examine the tip of the striker. Smooth it out slightly if it has a burr or sharp spot.:redface:

Your selection of powders is o.k. N-340 is a slower powder, and you are not near the max of the load. There should be no pressure signs. You do not need anymore than a couple thousandths crimp on your bullet. Measure an eighth of an inch lower than the rim, and then right at the top of the rim to find out what you have. Too much crimp will increase the pressures, and probably lose out on accuracy.

When the Winchester primers were getting scarce a couple years ago, I went out and bought about 25,000 Federal small pistol. Haven't had a problem at all with major or minor power loads. I am now down to a few thousand left, and they have been 100%. Yes, they are softer. Yes, I shot most of them in a Glock G22.

As for oil in the striker channel............the only problem is collecting dirt with the oil. The oil will NOT harm it if used very lightly. Glock armourers will also tell you that you only need a couple drops of oil in the gun. Fine if you are law enforcement and shoot 100 rounds a year. Not if you shoot regularly. Any area that is metal to metal contact needs oil. PERIOD. I have a G22 that has WELL over 70,000 rounds through it. One ejector broke, and the springs (trigger return spring especially) replaced periodically. That's it. I oil it liberally in all metal-to-metal areas. In all those rounds, never a misfire, a couple stove-pipes (limp-wristed), and no major problems.
 
I have three G17s, two of which I use with my reloads, one of which I have barely touched and has less than 1K of factory ammo through it. This G17 has never seen any oil in the striker channel or anywhere else, I only clean the barrel and lightly grease the slide grooves.

All three rupture the primer when I fire empty cases :confused: The newest one is the one that does it the least, having a nice round striker. However out of 20 tests, 2 primers ruptured.

The other two have visible dents on the strikers and they will punch through 5 out of 20 on average.

I took my range gun apart and cleared out the striker channel, doesn't change anything. Might try and smooth off the end of the striker or just get a new one since its been there done that.

Just as a side note, the primers seat below flush, so as far as I know depth pre-strike is OK.
 
have you tried firing a primer in an empty case? turn the radio up and have at er. That will tell you if your striker is piercing the primer. If no punctures happen then it means its not too sharp, and its in fact not piercing but rupturing. Even with really hot loads with soft primers there shouldnt be ruptures unless theres something slowing the striker. A burr? weak spring? The casing head spaces on the mouth, could too tight of a crimp be letting the case too far into the chamber allowing too much headspace and no support for the rest of the primer surrounded my the strikers contact. Not only would too tight a crimp increase pressure but if the case mouth is going beyond the end of the chamber and into the barrel that could really boost the pressures as the bullet tries to wedge through? Anyhow if your guns are clean with good springs, ill be off to put my foot in my mouth...
 
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