Need help! Am i being paranoid?

mikeystew

mikeystew

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Im new to the art of loading, and i re-loaded my first 20 rounds of 30-30 for my 336 today, and upon doing so a couple things got my attention;

1, After priming and charging i seated the bullets and a few of them appeared to seat to the cannelure and then felt loose indicating to me that i had not applied enough pressure on the lee collet die to size the neck properly on those cartridges, and only the mouth of the case was really grabbing the bullet. 5 or so of 20 had this issue, so i manually set the OAL and ran them all through the factory crimp die in the hopes that that would be all it needed to perform properly. After crimping they are in there good and tight alright. wil a loose-ish bullet held in place by the crimp be safe to shoot? Or will it cause pressure variances enough to affect accuracy?

2, The bullets i used were 150g speer hot core flat nose, and as i was seating them i noticed variances in overall cartridge length from 2.525"-2.539" and was puzzled as to why because i knew the jamb nut on the die was tight. I then inspected the bullets themselves suspecting that the diameters at the front of the bullets was inconsistant, causing the taper in the dead length seating die to push some in farther than others. This was confirmed with a vernier. So my question is what effect will this have on accuracy and is there any other reason at all i should be concerned about this? Is it just a crappy brand of ammo or is this common? A strange thing to note is that the cannelure on all the bullets appeared to be in the same place, about 95% of the way in the throat, although 1/100th" probably is un-percievable to the naked eye.

Any advise would be helpfull, as these are my first loads and i suspect im just being a nervous nelly, but i'd like to be sure. I was thinking about removing the mandrel from the collet die and giving them another squeeze to grab the bullet harder if it is a problem, but if it does not matter i wont bother.
Thanks
Mike
 
Why? i've been advised to use the collet die primarily from a few people..., it is fireformed brass from my gun so i don't see the problem, an explaination would be beneficial. and your thought on any of the other issues?
 
It's my under standing that you should FL resize for levers, apparently the brass can be little tough to extract from the chamber if it's just necksized. But I've never owned a lever myself so whether or not that's true, I cannot say.
 
yes it is a lee collet neck sizer, it does not size the case... just the neck. i was told a while back by the #2 silhouette shooter in B.C. that as often as possable i should use fireformed brass and only size the neck. I only have one 30-30 so it is not being used in another gun... any thoughts on my other concerns??

As a side note i've made a few dummies that cycle just fine with the neck sizer.
 
You are trying to load like a benchrest shooter for a truck gun. :)

The crimp die undoes any good that might have been done by using the collet die and not sizing full length could be an issue for a lever gun after a few loadings on the brass.

The bullets will vary unless you are using some high end target stuff and isn't a big concern when you aren't pushing max loads or aiming for a precise jump to the lands in the throat. As long as they feed well and aren't seated so deep that they cause pressure issues you'll be fine.
 
A collet squeezes the case neck against a precision mandrel for a perfect fit with minimum run-out. No lube case is needed. Cases last ten times longer, so the savings on only 35 cases will pay for the dies.Maximum accuracy is usually achieved by seating the bullet out far enough to touch or almost touch the rifling. This provides the shot start pressure normally supplied by the crimp. That's why a dead length bullet seater is included to complete the most accurate reloading system ever made.These dies size only the neck to preserve the perfect fit of fire forming. Only reload cases that have been fired in your gun.

Not recommended for autoloaders, slide or lever action guns.

This is from the Lee site
 
Generations of reloaders have been loading for the 30-30.
I think I am safe in saying that the most common and widely accepted method used for many years, is to use standard dies. Set the sizing die to just barely touch the shoulder on fire formed cases from your rifle. If the empties stick on coming out, then set the sizing die in a bit more.
Jacketed bullets are usually not crimped.
If you do it this way you can quit worrying and shoot away.
 
mikeystew said:
Im new to the art of loading, and i re-loaded my first 20 rounds of 30-30 for my 336 today, and upon doing so a couple things got my attention;

1, After priming and charging i seated the bullets and a few of them appeared to seat to the cannelure and then felt loose indicating to me that i had not applied enough pressure on the lee collet die to size the neck properly on those cartridges, and only the mouth of the case was really grabbing the bullet. 5 or so of 20 had this issue, so i manually set the OAL and ran them all through the factory crimp die in the hopes that that would be all it needed to perform properly. After crimping they are in there good and tight alright. wil a loose-ish bullet held in place by the crimp be safe to shoot? Or will it cause pressure variances enough to affect accuracy?

2, The bullets i used were 150g speer hot core flat nose, and as i was seating them i noticed variances in overall cartridge length from 2.525"-2.539" and was puzzled as to why because i knew the jamb nut on the die was tight. I then inspected the bullets themselves suspecting that the diameters at the front of the bullets was inconsistant, causing the taper in the dead length seating die to push some in farther than others. This was confirmed with a vernier. So my question is what effect will this have on accuracy and is there any other reason at all i should be concerned about this? Is it just a crappy brand of ammo or is this common? A strange thing to note is that the cannelure on all the bullets appeared to be in the same place, about 95% of the way in the throat, although 1/100th" probably is un-percievable to the naked eye.

Any advise would be helpfull, as these are my first loads and i suspect im just being a nervous nelly, but i'd like to be sure. I was thinking about removing the mandrel from the collet die and giving them another squeeze to grab the bullet harder if it is a problem, but if it does not matter i wont bother.
Thanks
Mike
Click to expand...

1) Shooting rounds with inconsistent bullet pull weights are not dangerous, but they won't produce accuracy as good as rounds with uniform bullet pull weights. A properly crimped bullet is not a loose bullet, and if each round has a uniform crimp, the bullet pull weight should be uniform and consistent. Neck concentricity is another matter, and if the bullet is loose in the neck, probably the neck isn't going to be concentric. If the neck isn't concentric, accuracy will suffer. As others have said, full length resize your .30/30 rounds.

2) Flat nosed bullets intended for use in lever action rifles are not match bullets, so the tolerances of certain dimensions might not be what you hope for. The uniformity and condition of the shank and base of the bullet are more important to accuracy than the nose of the bullet. Take a few of your bullets and push them nose first into the muzzle of your rifle, then with firm pressure on the bullet turn it between your fingers and a line will be scored on the bullet marking the front edge of the bearing surface. The uniformity of the bullet's length from its base to this line is the dimension that matters. But I am afraid you are attempting to be too precise with bullets intended for a hunting rifle, and the differences you are measuring would only be detectable when fired in a precision match rifle.
 
Thank you Boomer. i can shoot them and i will not notice much of a difference in accuracy.
as for full length sizing... this matter seems to get totally different opinions here than i got on the marlinowners forum. the levergun reloading moderator/guru in their reloading forum had this to say when i asked if i needed to full length size instead of using a collet die;

"No. The collet die is a really neat widget

I've had brass in levergun calibers I've never needed to full length size as long as the loads were not too hot and they were used in the same gun. This all the way to the limit of the lifespan of the brass.

A better bit of advice would be to say, "Make sure your resized cases chamber freely and easily before you go on your hunt."

Then the type of sizing used doesn't matter. Checking loaded rounds for function is essential anyway.

The advice to "always full length size" has to do with the lever's (in)ability to force tight cases home, but isn't necessarily relevant as long as there's room for the cartridge to chamber. As long as there's clearance, neck sizing for the particular rifle will work fine.

Sooner or later a levergun shooter will find a full length sizing die handy, but depending upon how he loads his arm he may rarely use it.

Like me."
 
I bought the Lee Classice loader in 35 Rem. for my 336RC and it only neck-sizes. I have started to experience some "sticky" cases after 3 or 4 reloadings. I have since purchased a F/L sizing die to help when this happens. I use lead and FTX bullets that I both crimp. Accuracy, even with slight seating depth variations, is excellent as far as shooting with a peep-sight goes.
 
mikeystew said:
2, The bullets i used were 150g speer hot core flat nose, and as i was seating them i noticed variances in overall cartridge length from 2.525"-2.539" and was puzzled as to why because i knew the jamb nut on the die was tight. I then inspected the bullets themselves suspecting that the diameters at the front of the bullets was inconsistant, causing the taper in the dead length seating die to push some in farther than others. This was confirmed with a vernier. So my question is what effect will this have on accuracy and is there any other reason at all i should be concerned about this? Is it just a crappy brand of ammo or is this common? A strange thing to note is that the cannelure on all the bullets appeared to be in the same place, about 95% of the way in the throat, although 1/100th" probably is un-percievable to the naked eye.
Click to expand...

I can only offer some advice on this part, I also have been loading 150 gr Hot cor's but not flat nose. I have noticed a difference in my OAL of up to + or - .013" I have measured lots of the actual bullets themselve and they are the difference. I have not moved the seater die after making my dummy sit to where i wanted. I have not had bad accuracy as a result. I will however not be useing those bullets next time. Something FMJ and maybe a little more spendy will do the job.

Good luck.
 
mikeystew said:
Thank you Boomer. i can shoot them and i will not notice much of a difference in accuracy.
as for full length sizing... this matter seems to get totally different opinions here than i got on the marlinowners forum. the levergun reloading moderator/guru in their reloading forum had this to say when i asked if i needed to full length size instead of using a collet die;

"No. The collet die is a really neat widget

I've had brass in levergun calibers I've never needed to full length size as long as the loads were not too hot and they were used in the same gun. This all the way to the limit of the lifespan of the brass.

A better bit of advice would be to say, "Make sure your resized cases chamber freely and easily before you go on your hunt."

Then the type of sizing used doesn't matter. Checking loaded rounds for function is essential anyway.

The advice to "always full length size" has to do with the lever's (in)ability to force tight cases home, but isn't necessarily relevant as long as there's room for the cartridge to chamber. As long as there's clearance, neck sizing for the particular rifle will work fine.

Sooner or later a levergun shooter will find a full length sizing die handy, but depending upon how he loads his arm he may rarely use it.

Like me."
Click to expand...

So did the reloading guru on the Marlin Owners forum suggest how to resolve the loose bullet issue? Standard loading dies provide a means of dealing with loose necks in that you can polish the expander button, replace it with a smaller one, or simply don't use one. If you get a bushing die set, you can choose the correct neck diameter for your specific brand of brass, and purchase a body die to bump the shoulders.

To my way of thinking, it is much easier to full length resize all your brass than it is to pick through 100 of them trying to decide which should have the shoulder bumped back and which don't need it. Using a collet die, you will at the very least have to resize some of your brass twice. But if your full length dies are correctly set, those cases that do not need to have the shoulder bumped will not be changed. If you load 100 rounds only to find that you can't close the action on a number of them you have a dilemma. You now get to pull your bullets, dump the powder, remove the decapping pin from your full length die, and start bumping the shoulders of the tight rounds, then you can reassemble those rounds. These reassembled rounds will now have a different bullet pull weight than those resized in your collet die. Or you could spend more money and get a Redding body die that will allow you to bump the shoulder on a loaded round, or you could just choose to full length resize in the first place.
 
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You can turn down the mandrel on your collet die .001" , which would give you a little more squeeze and more neck tension.
Count me amoung those that think you are wasteing your time, that Marlins aren't benchguns, low neck tension on tube magazines is a bad idea, factory crimping will cancel any benefit of neck sizing and that you should start shopping for another guru.
With the above disclaimer out of the way, I have a curious nature and discovered years ago that a .308 collet die would work on 30-30s. The conclusions that I came up with were:

I was wasteing my time.
Winchesters aren't benchguns either.
Low neck tension on tube mags are a lousy idea.
The FC die undid any possible advantage.
That I'm not much of a guru either.

Have fun tinkering.;)
 
mikeystew said:
1, After priming and charging i seated the bullets and a few of them appeared to seat to the cannelure and then felt loose
Click to expand...

First of all, congrats on completing your first batch of loads! Loose bullets are a result of insufficient neck tension.

mikeystew said:
so i manually set the OAL and ran them all through the factory crimp die in the hopes that that would be all it needed to perform properly. After crimping they are in there good and tight alright.
Click to expand...

Crimping is not an appropriate remedy for insufficient neck tension. Sufficient neck tension is mandatory with or without crimping.
 
As above, loose neck tension will give you bullets pushed back in the case, from recoil, and from tube magazine pressure.
You can fire those rounds, but don't use the magazine, or you may have a bullet pushed back, and that could jam your rifle.
 
i loaded them up and all 20 cycled through no problems, did not feel too tight or even extra snug. im fairly sure i just wasn't putting enough pressure on the collet for 5 of the loads as 15 of the 20 were firmly in place before the crimping. i've tried sizing 5 more cases since and it tightens the neck up fine now after another 1/4 turn of the die and a bit more elbow grease.
 
You learn from experience. Mostly your own.

Shoot the ammo you have. If there is any question of neck tension, shoot them single shot - not from the mag.

When you bring the empties home, see if they re-chamber easily. If any pressure is required to close the bolt, some FL sizing is required.

Take a case that has a difficulty, and size it in increments until the bolt closes easily, and set the die to that lenght.

You can use the neck szer until a FL is required.

For hunting, I would only use FL cases. Read below.
 
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